Transcript of episode 009 -

Going boldly with Blair Imani

Bridget Todd (00:04):

There Are No Girls on the Internet is a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd, and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. When you think of the future, what does it look like? In 1966, Star Trek creator Gene Roddenberry imagined a future with a multiracial crew of the USS Enterprise, work together to explore the wonders of space. And while they were at it, they also explored race, disability and gender.

Bridget Todd (00:37):

Star Trek has long been a vessel for people to imagine themselves in the future. When Nichelle Nichols, who played Uhura, wanted to quit the show to pursue a career on Broadway, it was Martin Luther King, a Trekkie himself, who convinced her to stay on so the world could see a black woman as commanding and capable. Here's Nichols, describing the historic encounter.

Nichelle Nichols (00:59):

I'm looking at Dr. Martin Luther King. He said, "You can't." And I couldn't, and I've never regretted it. I didn't leave. I couldn't leave. The rest is history.

Is it any surprise that MLK was a Star Trek fan?

Bridget Todd (01:17):

Is it any surprise that MLK was a Star Trek fan? In order to be an activist, you have to be able to imagine a future that's better than the current reality, and believe in the promise that the future includes people like you.

Bridget Todd (01:31):

Blair Imani is an activist, historian and author. Like MLK before her, she's a huge Trekkie. Nichelle helped her imagine a future where people like her aren't just included, but where they can also live long and prosper. Last year, Blair went to Comic-Con in California. She cosplayed as Geordi La Forge, the Enterprise's chief engineer, played by LeVar Burton. The character was a nod to George La Forge, a quadriplegic fan of the show. Geordi is blind, and a device called a VISOR gives him the ability to see. And if you're anything like me, you spent your childhood mimicking the device with a headband on your face. Blair wanted to dress as Geordi, but also add her own spin to it.

Blair Imani (02:13):

I have always believed that Geordi La Forge of Star Trek is a Muslim, because he is born, I think, on February 16th, 2335, not I think, I know, in Mogadishu, Somalia, which is a Muslim majority country. And in 300 years, it'll probably still be a Muslim majority country, so odds are that Geordi La Forge is a black Muslim. So I thought, "Oh, how fun and wholesome it will be for me to bring my religiosity and myself to this space." I did not anticipate to go super viral. I did not anticipate pissing off Islamophobes. I mean I kind of always anticipate that, but not in the Star Trek fandom. So, it kind of turned into some fun thing I could do. Of course, like most things, it became a political statement.

Bridget Todd (02:55):

You can find a link to Blair's outfit in the show notes, and I definitely suggest checking it out. Her feminized, Islamicized take on Geordi La Forge with the hijab went viral.

Blair Imani (03:06):

I had this beautiful robe from Elhoffer Design, which is based in Los Angeles, created by Katie Elhoffer. So a woman-owned business, love that. I had the Geordi La Forge VISOR, which is his seeing device because Geordi La Forge is not sighted, he's blind, but he uses this vision device, VISOR device in order to be able to see, so I had that. And then I put a nice black hijab on top of it.

Bridget Todd (03:28):

Blair said only three people asked her about cosplaying as a version of Geordi who presents as a woman. But it was the addition of the hijab that really riled people up. Some of the responses were really pedantic. Like one Twitter user, who said a hijab would violate the Starfleet's dress code. So, Blair, what was the reaction like online?

Blair Imani (03:47):

You would have thought that I had, I don't know, lit a holy book on fire, the way some people were reacting. You had the one group of folks who... Well, actually I wouldn't have even photographed it if it wasn't for my friend Kaylin [Burowski 00:04:01], he's my photographer primarily, and he was like, "You need to get photographed for this." And I was like, "Okay, fine, let's do it before I go to Comic-Con." And I just posted it for [foreign language 00:04:10], which is Friday, Friday prayer day. I was like, [" foreign language 00:04:14] to all the Muslims across the galaxy." The pictures came out super iconic, so I posted them. It was wild, because cast of the Star Trek franchise, like Will Wheaton and LeVar Burton himself and Michael Dorn and Brent Spiner saw the post and started sharing it themselves, which was super-duper validating. I was like on top of the world. Then of course the fans started to see it. Then of course startrek.com itself started to see it. So there was this outpouring of like, "What is this?"

Blair Imani (04:47):

The most exciting and I guess surprising aspect was that people thought I was a new character on the show Picard. I still get email from people who are like, "When is your episode coming out? I'm so excited."

Bridget Todd (05:02):

So some people really liked it, and some people really hated it. But Blair couldn't understand why her using Star Trek to affirm that the future includes black Muslims like her was so shocking, particularly given that Star Trek was meant to show a vision of the future that includes everybody.

Blair Imani (05:18):

It was really polarizing. On the one hand, as far as social media went, it was folks who were really excited or thought that I was a new character. Then you had folks saying things like, "Gene Roddenberry didn't intend for Muslims to be in space. Muslims aren't in Star Trek." And I'm like, "First of all, Star Trek is fictional. Second of all, yeah, he did, because Gene Roddenberry, he believed in infinite diversity in infinite combinations, and Star Trek was a beloved show of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who actually encouraged Uhura, the woman who plays Uhura, to continue on the show, Nichelle Nichols." So not only is Gene Roddenberry not this anti-diversity, anti-PC dude, he was the reason there was a first interracial kiss on television, between Captain Kirk and Lieutenant Uhura. That's huge. So when people are saying there's no Muslims in space, I'm like, "Actually I have evidence to back it up, but also this isn't even a real universe. If you hate Muslims so much, maybe you should just say that instead of trying to use either your own fandom or something else to hide behind that."

Bridget Todd (06:29):

There's a rich tradition of activists finding inspiration in being able to see themselves in fictional worlds. It's one of the reasons why MLK wanted Nichelle Nichols to keep showing that kind of representation.

Bridget Todd (06:40):

Civil rights icon John Lewis was one of my heroes. And my favorite fact about him is that during Comic-Con, he cosplayed as his own younger self, crossing the Edmunt Pettus Bridge in Selma during the civil rights movement. At Comic-Con 2016, he wore the same coat and carried the same backpack that contained the same things he brought with him back on that fateful day in 1965: an apple, a toothbrush, and a comic book. All the things you need to survive a night in jail. At the convention, dressed as his own younger self, Lewis led kids on a little march around the convention to help them visualize that anyone could be a hero, even them. He was there to promote his own comic book, a graphic novel retelling of the march on Selma, called March. Here is the late John Lewis at Comic-Con 2016, advocating for a new generation to create good trouble.

John Lewis (07:36):

The March, book one, but also book two, and when book three come out, will inspire another generation of young people and people not so young to stand up, to speak up, and [inaudible 00:07:52].

Bridget Todd (07:55):

It might sound strange for a civil rights icon to be talking about comics at a convention. But John Lewis says that he was first inspired to join the civil rights movement from reading a comic book about MLK called Dr. King: Martin Luther King and the Montgomery Story.

Bridget Todd (08:13):

I think it really shows that civil rights [inaudible 00:08:17] and activists are real people with real interest. They're not just someone that you read about in February for Black History Month or a picture in a book. They're real, multifaceted people, and I do think there's this connection to science fiction and other nerdy interests and civil rights and activism, because you have to be able to imagine and dream that different worlds are possible to be an activist and to fight for the kind of change that you fight for.

Blair Imani (08:45):

I keep making the connections between religion and Sci-Fi, because it is the idea of a different world, like Dr. King spoke about the mountain top, but we can also look at that as imagining Afrofuturism and imagining ourselves in a different realm. This whole idea that we have to get beyond the limitations of our own imagination. Sometimes for religious folks such as myself that means trusting that Allah or God or Yahweh has the ultimate plan, and that is beyond our own understanding because we have a finite ability to understand in our current system. Or it could be to use graphics and art and illustration in comics and books and video and film and podcasts to imagine what that looks like and transport us to a different place, as a reprieve from the difficulties of the world.

Blair Imani (09:35):

But it's also crucial to understand that these are tools used to transport us, but they're still being created by people. Because of that, there's going to be limitations. I mean, the example I keep giving is that in Star Trek they have people giving painful traditional birth, via the birth canal. I'm like, "Okay. Well, if you can zap somebody healthy with a laser gun, then why can't you just teleport the baby out of the womb?" Like there's limitations. Or the idea that we haven't surpassed this idea of pain during childbirth, et cetera, or just... Is there an incubation pod? Because Star Trek: The Next Generation was created at a specific time in history, even the things that they make as a futuristic interpretation of a current technology, it's going to be based on that current technology. But the other cool thing is that so many technologies are then based on the imaginings of previous Sci-Fi writers, even like Jules Verne. People, as they imagine, are also limited by the imaginings of each other.

Blair Imani (10:43):

With John Lewis, I was actually able to meet him while he was on tour, during the first March book, created by himself and Andrew Aydin and Nate Powell. I spoke to him about why he decided to do this format, and it was because he wanted to reach as many people as possible. So Andrew Aydin and John Lewis, they both loved comic books. That comic book that you referred to is called Dr. King: Martin Luther King and the Montgomery Story, and it's beautiful because it shows how much of a superman Dr. King was made to be, not only as in an educational tool, but these are representational material of things that are happening in the present moment. I think today we get caught up in conversations about, "This activism is performative," if you have a outfit to show up to a protest, you're being a shallow activist, completely ignoring the fact that the Black Panther Party didn't just wake up with perfectly symmetrical Afros, excellently tailored slack and turtlenecks and berets. They didn't just roll out of bed like that. It was all intentional.

Blair Imani (11:49):

Performance and art and illustration and the conveyance of information requires intentionality, and that's going to deal with aesthetics. So it's not to say we have to choose one. It's not to say one should overcome the other, but that we can have both of these things in tandem and that sometimes we limit ourselves, we being the broader community or people who just... We as a people often limit ourselves in what tools we grab onto. Because if you've only seen tweets or tiktoks that cover surface level material, if the only way you've come into contact with Sci-Fi has been at this surface level way, then you're probably not going to understand the fact that during the time of a crack epidemic, the Star Trek universe decided to tackle addiction. You might not understand that TikTok is being used to educate young people and people across literacy and language.

Blair Imani (12:46):

So it's all about how we use the tools. That's why I find comics and film and TV so exciting, because, yeah, it's a different world, yeah, it's not real life, but it can totally be a proxy for a real life, and it can be a reprieve from our world. But then it's also very important to make sure that we check our own biases when creating that work.

Bridget Todd (13:09):

Fiction, comic books, cartoons, TV-shows, all of them can be tools to help us better understand ourselves and the world around us. Blair is also an author. Her books Modern Herstory and Making Our Way Home use colorful illustrations to help introduce audiences to the concept that marginalized people of the past weren't just two-dimensional historical figures, they were complex. The cover of both of her books kind of look like comics.

Blair Imani (13:36):

Fun fact, full circle story is the reason I am an author is because of LeVar Burton. One, LeVar Burton made me an enthusiastic reader of your Reading Rainbow, and two, I thanked him for that. He started to following me, and when I was trying to get a publisher for the book, he shouted me out and literally said, "Somebody publish this woman's book." And to two million people who were probably in literacy to some extent. That paved the way for me not only getting my first book deal but my second one with the same publishing house. So LeVar Burton's amazing.

Blair Imani (14:07):

I couldn't relish the fact that imagery and things like TV and film shaped my own understanding as a reader and as an informed person. You might remember Jimmy Neutron, they actually snuck in a lot of very important scientific and engineering information into that show. Even SpongeBob talks about things that make sense in real life. And the fact that Steve Hillenburg, who created SpongeBob, was a marine biologist and wanted to convey that education to young people through his work. I was definitely informed by that, and I think growing up in the golden era of animation really helped me to connect to those two things.

Blair Imani (14:50):

But I also like the idea of somebody picking up my book because it looks like a good coffee table book, it looks like a light read. I do make my books accessible at a fifth-grade level because most folks read at a fifth-grade level and most magazines are written at a fifth-grade level. But I like the idea of some sweet grandma who might have conservative politics picking up the book because it looks friendly on the front cover, giving it to her offspring, and, surprise, they're getting radicalized. They're getting educated about things that are complex and intricate in a way that is family friendly and age appropriate, but things that might not be covered until they get to college because of the limitation of the educational system.

Blair Imani (15:29):

Especially with my second book, Making Our Way Home, even though there's a gay couple on the front cover, in the form of my uncle Lester and a partner we imagined for him, I still get emails from people saying, "I didn't know this book was going to be queer affirming." Of course they don't say it like that. But I'm like, "I didn't hide anything." But because it's presented in a certain way, it doesn't detract from people who are already seeking that material but it also invites people in who might not have otherwise engaged with something like the Great Migration or black history, that covers everything from the period of enslavement to the creation of hiphop.

Blair Imani (16:05):

So I try to use imagery to sneak my way in, and it's pretty effective.

Bridget Todd (16:11):

So we know there are black folks, queer folks, and Muslims folks in the future. Did Star Trek help you be able to visualize that kind of world?

Blair Imani (16:20):

Yeah. And it's funny, like so much. Star Trek has really helped me envision what the future looks like. So often when we look at Sci-Fi, it's aliens from a different universe who have a completely different molecular structure but for some reason they have a British accent, like WTF? Like white supremacy goes hard, I guess, even in Sci-Fi. I'm definitely not under any delusion about why certain biases exist. It's because it's the limitations of our own imagination as people.

Blair Imani (16:48):

But it's not only help me understand diversity, it's helped me understand how I discuss religion at large, as a historian. So often that means looking back in time. It's a really exciting thing to also look at Sci-Fi as a step towards the future. Star Trek has been fundamental in the identity formation of myself as a black woman and as a Muslim woman. It's helped me speak about religion, just to see how something as secular and something as low stakes, I guess, as Star Trek, can be imbued with this same type of passion and vitriol, but also beauty that comes with religious debates.

Blair Imani (17:25):

I was actually at the School of Divinity at Princeton, giving a talk. I was talking about canon. Today we talk about canon like your fan canon, your head canon, things that you know to be true but maybe aren't canonical to the actual franchise, say things like maybe you believe all Pikachus are related in Pokemon, but you don't actually have a bases for... Things like that. So I was talking about how in my head canon for Star Trek, Geordi La Forge is a black Muslim. Of course that's influenced by my own skin in the game. I would also love there to be a black Muslim in my favorite show, and my favorite character to be one. So of course I'm going to imbue that, but there's also a basis in the fact that he's born in Mogadishu, Somalia, which is canonical to the text. I was talking about this in the context of religion and how we can all read the same religious scripture and come to completely different theological interpretations. People tend to grasp that. But I was talking about how, of course, that happens. I think some people get confused, like, "How can we all read the same story of Genesis and..." Well, we're not even reading the same story, we're reading different interpretations, different translations, centuries old differences. We're reading people imbuing their own biases while they translate. All these different things.

Blair Imani (18:43):

It was so great, because I was talking to this group at this very fancy institution, at Princeton, talking about how Star Trek is a case study into why there's so much religious turmoil. Because if something as, like I said, low stakes as Star Trek can start a virtual flame war over what religion is or is not in Star Trek, then of course something as high stakes as our eternal souls is going to spark a bunch of debate. I tell people this and I think it helps them understand everything from why I feel comfortable being a queer Muslim and owning that and owning God's love, to things like why fandoms can be so fraught and disconnected and just chaotic.

Blair Imani (19:27):

But the really cool thing to see is how people will use these scripture, or in this case the fandom or the original source material from the creator, in this case Gene Roddenberry and not God, well, you know, to use that to protect and preserve other people. Because it was so cool seeing Trekkies and Trekkers, which are also Trekkies, but they use their own terminology, which we respect, defending me, basing this in not only Star Trek: The Next Generation, but Deep Space 9, the movies, the animated series, all showing a basis for religion in Star Trek, from episodes in the original series, where there's a Christmas tree, to episodes in Deep Space 9, where they totally get into religion, to episodes in The Next Generation itself. I just felt so warm in that. It was like a virtual hug from all these different strangers, who were like, "We're not only going to protect her as a Muslim woman, but her ability to belong in this fandom." And that's the thing about being a girl or a woman on the internet, is that you constantly have to defend yourself and it's a relief when other people step in to do in on your behalf.

Bridget Todd (20:36):

Definitely. That's something that I love. But one thing that I love about being somebody who's a woman online, is people will ride for you. People will fight for you. They'll speak up for you. They'll shake tables for you. They'll make sure that your voice is included and amplified. And those moments, just saying yes to that, trust falling into your community that has your back, those have been my favorite times online.

Blair Imani (20:58):

Oh, 100%. I think that when you go to Comic-Con or you go to a convention or any space where you're taking virtual connections and putting it into the physical realm, there's always that concern of, "Am I going to be rejected?" And that really goes with anything. Just like the first day at school, your first day on the job, "Am I going to be rejected?" Then also being in the fandom space and a geek or a nerd space, it's that constant feeling of, "Do you even know the material well enough?" "Oh, you like Beyonce? Name all of her freckles." That type of thing. It's like, "Come on now. We can all enjoy things at our different levels." But just the whole feeling that we don't know our stuff enough as women. That's not just, like I said, it's not just with Star Trek. The assumption that I don't know every character off the top of my head, even though I totally bombed a Star Trek trivia recently.

Blair Imani (21:51):

But it's also the implication that we as professionals, as women in the world, don't know what we're talking about. That could be anything that you do. Like I was in the communications field when we worked at Planned Parenthood, and yeah, I would constantly have people telling me, not there, thank goodness, but I'd have reporters constantly questioning how I was so young and doing what I was doing, how I was doing this and doing what I was doing. So it's exhausting to then deal with that in a leisurely space or recreational space. But it is that beautiful thing where people will just go for you, even when you're making an inside joke amongst friends and you're ragging on each other on the internet, and somebody who doesn't know that your friends are like, "Hey, leave Blair alone." It's like, "Hey, actually, we're cool. But thanks for having my back."

Bridget Todd (22:33):

Let's take a quick break.

Bridget Todd (22:43):

And we're back. The future will be intersectional. There will be black people, queer people, and Muslim people. And people like Blair, who exist at these intersections. But on social media, people tell Blair there's no such thing as a queer Muslim, so she can't possibly exist. Yet, here she is, existing. What's it like to have so many people online essentially saying that because you're a queer Muslim you can't possibly exist?

Blair Imani (23:09):

It's funny to me. And honestly, I'm so grateful that I've gotten to a place in my heart and in my own personal journey where I can laugh at it. Because in my family, if we can laugh at it, no matter how messed up it is, we've moved on or at least we're able to view it in a way that's healthy. In Islam, at least we don't believe that a human being can then tell another human being what their salvation's going to look like. Not even the Prophet, peace be upon him. It's this idea that Allah is Allah, deities are deities and humans are humans. So I can be very comfortable in saying when somebody says, "You can't be Muslim," I'm like, "Oh my goodness. I did not know that Allah used Instagram. How are you doing?" Or I have people who say things like, "The devil called, they're waiting for you in hell." And I'm just like, "Oh my goodness. You have the devil's direct line? That sounds like a problem." So I can really have fun with it.

Blair Imani (24:00):

But at the same time it's really breaking down the fact that in my belief Islam, faith, regardless of the faith that you come from, those things are so deeply personal. And yes, they have accompaniments, like religious texts, the Koran, you have hadiths, which are stories passed down from the Prophet's time and from other leaders, and it is up to you how you walk into that. For myself, I will never let another human being tell me what Allah believes about myself, because as human beings, yes, we can communicate to God through prayer, but it is, again, through the limitation of our own understanding and our own biases. So I own up to that, but then I also encourage other to think of that as well. Not to say, "This is how you should do Islam, this is how you should not do Islam," but to say, "What speaks to you?"

Blair Imani (24:53):

It used to really bother me. I think also what used to bother me was being told that I wasn't a black woman because I am lighter skinned. What's so frustrating to me is that I so often see lighter-skinned black women using that as a reason to perpetuate and continue being colorist instead of grasping the fact that colorism isn't the same as getting made fun of for being lighter skinned. It's not the same as getting made fun of for having a sun burn. It means that as a lighter-skinned black woman, I have enjoyed the benefits and the privilege that are unearned of living in a society that calls me beautiful at the peril of my darker-skinned sibling. Then, understanding that, your feelings shouldn't get in the way of you dismantling that. Your feelings, yeah, those are valid, but those should not get in the way or step on the necks of the people who are already being harmed by those systems.

Blair Imani (25:44):

So I'm constantly thinking about systems of oppression and systems of privilege, and making sure that I'm quickly and easily discerning when something is from the self-serving interest or input of an individual who wants to do me harm, versus when it's something that's worth listening to and being called in. Things like my religion, those are non-negotiable. But of course I'm always going to understand things like privilege, class privilege, abled privilege and be receptive to those conversations. But it is a line to walk between when people are trying to hurt you and when people are calling you on your BS.

Bridget Todd (26:23):

In 2017, Blair went on Tucker Carlson's Fox News show to discuss the surveillance of Muslim communities. Carlson clumsily tries to call her out for trying to speak on behalf of the Muslim and LGBTQ community. Again, the underlying assumption being that Blair couldn't possibly be both Muslim and queer. And that's how she ended up coming out in front of million of people on Fox News.

Tucker Carlson (26:46):

Have you noticed that all identity politics kind of converged in the end? So we talked about Muslims, it's about the LGBT community, it's about... It's like at some point-

Blair Imani (26:56):

Well, some of us, like myself, exist in all of those communities. It's not identity politics when it's your life. [crosstalk 00:27:01]

Blair Imani (27:01):

So, okay, fun story. I was just feeling really cocky because I had spent the previous year working at Planned Parenthood, educating folks in all parts of the country about abortion and abortion stigma, and doing it to solid effect, where I would have conversations with people where they would come at me and say things like, "You all are the devil." And at the end they'd be like, "Oh, maybe I can take my daughter to Planned Parenthood for sex ed." So I was feeling on top of the world. My talking points were working, messaging was working. I get a inquiry from this guy, it's my last month working at Planned Parenthood because my grant was over, and so I was like, "Yeah, I can do this. Who is this guy?" I was not thinking about, like, "Oh, maybe I should do some counter intel, figure out who he is." I'm going to plan to come out on national TV, not thinking about that. I still have friends who are in the coms in PR field who just think I'm a genius who orchestrated the whole thing. Not true. I would like to claim that, but no. I was just correcting him. I forgot that we were on stage.

Blair Imani (27:55):

It got to this point where I was so fed up with him dancing around it and really trying to erase me and poke and prod at me that I just snapped back, in a very eloquent way, and I said, "Well, actually, in addition to being a Muslim woman, I'm a black queer person." And then I immediately realized I came out on TV. I could feel my phone vibrating in my pocket and I could... My partner was actually on set with me, because it was remote so I've never breathed the same air as Tucker Carlson, [foreign language 00:28:24], praise God. But my partner is standing there, looking at me and I can't totally look off camera because you've got to hold a face. I have a pretty good poker face, but if you watch it with that knowledge, then it becomes apparent that then when I stumbled over my words, it was because I had just come out on national TV.

Blair Imani (28:42):

Everything changed immediately. People who were homophobic but in my life and then found out who I was or am, removed themselves, which I considered to be a blessing. But it still was hard. Sarah Kate Ellis, the president and CEO of GLAAD reached out. That was awesome because GLAAD basically scooped me up, and they will do this anytime somebody comes out publicly, they make themselves a resource. They help you tell your story. If you want to do press, they'll make sure you get connected. I really just felt scooped up and embraced by the community. It was just like a really beautiful thing. For a year after that, I felt like I was the belle of the queer ball in the same way that I felt about that about Star Trek. I was like, "Ooh, look at this. I feel popular." I felt like that after I converted to Islam as well. It was this feeling of being new in a community and being exciting.

Blair Imani (29:32):

I also learned, as I was experiencing those beautiful euphoric things, that privilege was showing up because I had the privilege of growing up in a context where I can be myself. Now, it's not to say that these things should be a privilege, you should be able to be yourself and your sexual orientation, gender identity, gender expression, regardless of the religious or cultural context you come from, but that is not the case.

Bridget Todd (29:57):

Blair didn't want to be the black queer Muslim. She didn't want her story to obscure the stories of other marginalized people who didn't have the ability to come out like she did.

Blair Imani (30:06):

So I wasn't realizing that people were calling me the queer Muslim, that people were looking at me as the queer Muslim. I was becoming very tokenized. Once I became awake to that, then i started to really immerse myself within other queer Muslims contexts and start to use my profile or increasingly large profile to help fundraise for organizations like Hidaya LGBTQ, both in the UK and the US, Muslims For Progressive Values, and start to feel that this wasn't just me on the Blair show, a responsibility that I had to use this newly found visibility for the upliftment of others. Because as I was telling stories that are authentic to myself, and that's important to do, I wasn't realizing how it was harming other people. I was talking about how I've never second-guessed myself for being queer in my whole life. But I'm not trying to tell that story in a way that makes others feel bad for going through a homophobic, queerphobic existence. That's not what I'm called to do. That's not what my role should be.

Blair Imani (31:12):

So now, and I don't think it's completely shifted, I've always tried to be very responsible in how I tell my story, but it's this increased responsibility. When I have young people reach out to me and they're like, "Blair, how can I be out like you?" I first explain to them and remind them of the context of the world that we live in, and that that's something you have to decide for yourself, and that whether you're out or whether you're not, you're valid, your queerness is valid. You're not lying to anyone just because you're unable to share your truth with people. Because it is incumbent on our society and on the people that love you to be able to make space for you, and if they don't do that, that's not your fault. So I've really shifted from this idea of, "Come out. Have a rainbow flag. All types of beautiful things." Those are important, but that's not all queerness is. People who are living closeted, the people who can't come out, those stories are important, and if I can help to shed light on those or use the lives of those people, then I'm absolutely going to do that.

Bridget Todd (32:10):

Your books are really about archiving and preserving all of the ways that women and non-binary people and black women in particular, the contributions that we really have made to history and society and to culture. Why is preserving that so important to you, and what can we do to make sure that these voices and these stories don't get overlooked or erased or lost?

Blair Imani (32:31):

That is the biggest, most terrifying thing for me, the idea that we will only remember people through the lens of those who remember them. Because we see it happen often, unfortunately, where we'll have someone who was being critical in calling representative John Lewis all types of besmirching names, then post a beautiful eulogy. Or you have idiots like Marco Rubio, posting the incorrect black person with him while also claiming to honor his memory. If you can't even tell us apart, then no, I'm not going to trust that you remember us for the work that we did. We saw it when Elijah Cummings passed and people thought that John Lewis had... It's just so frustrating that we're constantly collapsed. So, no, I do not trust the institutions that collapse us into one monolith or sanitize our legacies, like what we see with Dr. King. I do not trust those institutions to do us justice.

Blair Imani (33:28):

I had made a joke, I think probably a couple of years ago, that I was going to write my own eulogy. But I also started to think about how that opportunity is denied with so many people, and that's constantly happening to us as black people, as black women, as black non-men, non-binary folks, et cetera. It's fighting against all of that and really trying to go back to the original texts. Like I was able to pour over some of the handwritten letters that my partner's grandmother had, that she corresponded with her husband. And finding those firsthand accounts, there's all types of things. There's pop culture references, there's mentions of just so many minute yet infinitely important things, that might get glazed over because whatever white historian didn't give a shit, or whatever academic historian couldn't be bothered with because they viewed it as not important. Because they didn't view it as important, it gets erased, which is terrifying because it is so...

Blair Imani (34:34):

We have so little power as a people, as black people in this country because of things like enslavement, reconstruction, the New Deal being a same old, same old deal that really shackled black folks. Just I could go on and on. But just all of this inequality in the country. Not only do we not learn about those things, but that just makes our condition worse because we are blamed for what we have endured instead of praised for getting through it while also being held down by centuries and centuries of weight. We then have to do this whole mental gymnastics of figuring out why our conditions are so poor, while we also see modal minorities in white folks uplifted as evidence that the system works, but we're just not trying hard enough, instead of actually learning the context. It's one of those things where it's a cycle and the only way we can break it is by elevating the truth and by changing who is telling that truth. Because people are going to tell the truth that's important to them and it's going to fall along biased lines, especially if the people who are telling those historical truths are faceless and nameless.

Bridget Todd (35:45):

More after this quick break.

Bridget Todd (35:54):

Let's get right back to it. If Blair has anything to say about it, the future of history won't be nameless or faceless. She's building a future where our stories aren't told carelessly.

Bridget Todd (36:06):

One of your life mottos is to boldly go, from Star Trek. What does your vision for a bold, queer, black, Muslim future look like?

Blair Imani (36:15):

Man, I mean it would be great if we didn't have to get surveilled. Just basic things, like I think one of the most basic things of being a marginalized person or a historically marginalized person is the ability to direct your own future and to have the resources and abilities to do that. Just basic things like having... Gil Scott-Heron says, "I just want a family and a wife and the food and the children, some foods to feed them every night." It's this, those basic things. The fact that there's premiums on water and healthcare and the fact that black maternal mortality is egregious, and it's not just because black women can't give birth. It's because of the medical system and medical racism. The fact that the Tuskegee syphilis experiments went on well beyond there was a cure for syphilis, and these people went untreated until they were called out in The New York Times in 1972. It's so many of those things.

Blair Imani (37:14):

Let me not limit myself in my own imaginations. There could be something that changes everything overnight. But there's going to be so many things that need to change. The whole goal, I think, is that we can determine our own futures. Not that we have to endure racelessness or lose our identities, but that our identities and who we are doesn't, because of the systems we live in, inhibit us from living our full futures. It doesn't mean that I want to suddenly live my life as a white Christian woman. No, I like being who I am. I would just like to be able to be who I am without the consequences of oppressive systems and what those systems put on to me.

Bridget Todd (37:49):

What do you think of when you think of the future? Who does it include? Who feels safe there? Who's supported there? Star Trek helped a generation of activists like MLK and Blair imagine a future that included them, and imagine a future where they could break out of the oppressive systems that keep us all from being free. And that is a future worth fighting for.

Bridget Todd (38:14):

Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi? You can reach us at hello@tangoti.com. You can also find transcripts of today's episode at tangoti.com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by me, Bridget Todd. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Amato was our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, write and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadia app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.