CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, fall risks. House Republicans are threatening a government shutdown and an impeachment inquiry against President Biden.
SPEAKER KEVIN McCARTHY:
It is a natural step forward that you would have to go to an impeachment inquiry.
CHUCK TODD:
As the 2024 campaign heats up, some Republicans are looking to counterprogram Donald Trump’s legal drama playing out in the courtroom. Will this Republican strategy work? I’ll ask Republican Governor Chris Sununu of New Hampshire. Plus, aging issues. The 81-year-old Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell freezes for the second time in front of reporters raising questions about his fitness for office.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
The Senate is the most privileged nursing home in the country.
CHUCK TODD:
Are America’s aging leaders becoming a liability? I'll speak with Franklin Foer, the author of "The Last Politician," a new book about President Biden with an inside account of how the oldest president in history operates. And, buy American. The U.S. warns China that American businesses may stop investing if conditions do not improve.
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Otherwise, they will deem it as just too risky and as I said uninvestable.
CHUCK TODD:
Have escalating tensions made the trade relationship with China far worse? I’ll talk to Commerce Secretary Gina Raimondo. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell, Jake Sherman, co-founder of Punchbowl News, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson and Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to Sunday, it's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning and a happy Labor Day weekend. Buckle up for a turbulent fall. Lawmakers will return to Washington this week to a political storm of their own making, with a Biden impeachment inquiry looking more and more likely, and uncertainty about whether the government can keep the lights on after this month. And there are televised pre-trial proceedings in Atlanta that are about to begin in the first of four criminal trials tied to Donald Trump. All of it adds up to a series of critical tests for our democracy and it's not clear our political leaders are equipped to meet them. Here in Washington, far from laying out a vision for the future of the country, Congress is focused on the bare minimum: just passing a bill to fund the government. Some House conservatives are making it clear they’re not going to vote for any short-term spending bill saying quote, “If a shutdown occurs, then so be it.” and "Most of what we do up here is bad anyway. Most Americans won’t even miss it" so some claim. Well, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy is trying to hold off a shutdown believing it's bad politics for the GOP and he is arguing it would stall any impeachment inquiry that some of those same House conservatives would like to start.
[START TAPE]
SPEAKER KEVIN McCARTHY:
It is a natural step forward that you would have to go to an impeachment inquiry. I would actually like to have a short-term C.R., only to make our arguments stronger, because, Maria, if we shut down, all the government shuts it down, investigation and everything else.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You heard McCarthy correctly. He is trying to leverage the impeachment carrot to persuade House Republicans to keep the government open. So far, many House conservatives aren't buying the deal.
[START TAPE]
REP. MATT ROSENDALE
We are not going to be distracted by a shiny object saying, “If you don’t get this continuing resolution passed, we won’t be able to pursue the impeachment inquiry.” That’s nonsense.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
The White House has stood up a war room of two dozen lawyers by the way, legislative aides and communications staffers to lead an aggressive response to a suspected Republican impeachment inquiry. Historically, it has been Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell who has been a shield against the sound and fury of House conservatives. It’s one reason he is unpopular with many of those House conservatives. In fact, he held a Wednesday press conference that was supposed to serve as a reality check because he announced that the Senate was going to pass a bipartisan bill to fund the government, despite their complaints. But at that same Wednesday event, McConnell appeared to freeze again, this time for about 30 seconds. McConnell’s office said he felt “lightheaded," the same reason they gave for a July episode when he was caught on camera unable to speak for 20 seconds at a press conference that was after a concussion from a serious fall in March. Now, McConnell's ability to lead is in doubt. There are questions, even within his inner circle, about how much longer the longest-serving party leader in Senate history can serve. Just half an hour after the Capitol physician released a terse letter medically clearing McConnell to work, the usually-friendly National Review to Senate Republicans called on McConnell to “step aside” and complaints are getting louder.
[START TAPE]
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
Right now, the Senate is the most privileged nursing home in the country.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
I think it'd be most prudent if he stepped aside.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
It's not at all unusual to have the response that sometimes happens to Mitch, when you've had a severe concussion. It's part of – it is part of the recovery. And so I'm confident he's going to be back to his old self.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
That's right, President Biden was easily McConnell's loudest defender this week. Of course, a spotlight on McConnell's age and health is not great politically for President Biden. In fact, in a new AP-NORC poll, more than three-quarters of Americans, including 69% of Democrats, say Biden is too old to effectively serve a second term. Meanwhile, a majority of the country, 53%, approve of the criminal charges against Trump in the 2020 election case. Just 29% disapprove of those moves. Overall, just 24% believe Biden should run in 2024 and just 30% want to see Trump run and yet here we are.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, joining me now is Republican Governor Chris Sununu of New Hampshire, who of course thought about a run for president himself but decided against it, and in some ways he's the ombudsman for the Republican Party these days. And so, Governor Sununu, get ready to play ombudsman here with us. Welcome back to Meet The Press.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Well, thanks for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with something that another governor said earlier today – earlier this week. It was Brian Kemp of Georgia pushing back at some Georgia Trump-supporting statehouse Conservatives who wanted to use the legislature to essentially defund Fani Willis' case against Donald Trump. Listen to what Governor Kemp said about that move.
[START TAPE]
GOV. BRIAN KEMP:
Up to this point I have not seen any evidence that D.A. Willis' actions or lack thereof warrant action by the Prosecuting Attorney Oversight Commission. The bottom line is that in the state of Georgia as long as I'm governor we're going to follow the law and the constitution, regardless of who it helps or harms politically.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
I want to ask this, Governor Sununu: You and Governor Kemp share this ability to take on Donald Trump and not to get politically penalized for it in your party in your home state. Why don't other presidential candidates not named Trump see the success you and Governor Kemp have had and follow suit?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Well, again, first – first off, Governor Kemp is spot – spot on. The guy's an oak. He's the oak of Georgia, and he's got some big shoulders and he handles it just incredibly every time. And, you know, you don't have to make it personal. I'm not saying other candidates do that. I mean, when you're running for president against the former president it's – it’s a very odd dynamic to be sure. The key to taking on, not just taking on Trump – you just call the balls and strikes like you see them. You don't make things personal. You do things that are clearly in the best interest of the constituents you serve, regardless of – of party. Now, I'm a staunch fiscal conservative, and I – I want to support Republican ideals but that doesn't mean we're going to bend and break rules because when you do that you set precedent for the other side. Now, as for the other candidates running for president, I think you're right. I think they have to be a little tougher on Trump. You know, Chris Christie kind of really goes nuclear on him, and God bless Christie does a great job with that. He exposes a lot of that, which I think is important. But I think what we saw on that debate stage last week I think there was a little – still a little too much kowtowing to him. I mean, you had Vivek saying he was one of the greatest presidents but – but he was going to be better than him. You know, he was still going to be running against him. So, it was a – it was an odd dynamic to be sure. There's still a lot of – a lot of time here, lot of time for this to play out on the main stage.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you sure? Let me show you this The Wall Street Journal poll that came out. Yes, it's a national primary number. Yes, you've got to take it with a little bit of a grain because we know, as you know, all politics have become national. Trump's lead has expanded and DeSantis is closer to the single-digit crowd than he is to the twenties, where he started off. This is clearly a poll that shows Trump strengthening and everybody else weakening. And this was done post-debate. So, it sort of reinforces your point, doesn't it?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Yeah, look, I’m – I'm surprised by those numbers. I am. Look, nationally the polls are very different than what we're seeing where the conversation's really happening. I appreciate we've had one debate nationally. I think that's a very important step. But look at Iowa. Look at New Hampshire, where the candidates are on the ground making their case as strong as they can. Those poll numbers are very, very different, right? Trump is in, like, the 42% range. And Trump has a floor of maybe 35%. But he also has a ceiling. Ultimately, he probably has a ceiling of somewhere in the high forties because over a third of his supporters have said they would happily go to another candidate. They just need more time to look at them. So that's where Trump's weakness really is. It's not a fait accompli. I know a lot of the – not you, per se, but a lot in the media are like, "Oh, this is over. This is over." It's really not. Remember – remember this guy named Barack Obama who they said had no chance against Hillary Clinton and the Clinton machine and all of that back in '08? In about six months things got very, very different. So you have to let the process play out. And – and I think the key is winnowing down that field. I talk about that a lot. We had 13 candidates a month ago. We have eight or nine today. I think we'll have five or six by the time Iowa comes, maybe three or four by New Hampshire. And then when it's one-on-one Trump's in trouble, and he knows that. And – and so depending on who that one is, and it still very much remains to be seen, that's where the Republicans have the opportunity to talk about healing America, not just re-litigating Donald Trump's drama.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, the person that's closest to Trump continues to be the governor of Florida. It's Ron DeSantis. He chose not to meet with President Biden in Florida yesterday. And let me play what President Biden said in response to what some believe was a snub. Take a listen.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
No, I'm not disappointed. He may have had other reasons. Because – but he did help us plan this. He sat with FEMA and decided where we should go, where would be the least disruption.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Look, Rick Scott, a former governor and a Republican senator who's up for reelection in 2024 and maybe is worried about swing voters did show up and met with Biden. What do you make of the governor's decision? You and I both know there's this pugilistic streak on the right that some advisors believe, "Hey, never show like you can work with the other side. That's bad politics".
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Well, look, I – I understand the politics of the situation, but I think down in – in Florida, I mean, it didn't sound like there was a lot of animosity between the two.
CHUCK TODD:
No, it didn't.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
I didn't see the former – current president, Biden, you know, complaining in any great sense. So I don't want to comment on their schedules or whatever that might've been. I think the key is you – you can't make politics out of a disaster like that. I think Governor DeSantis actually has handled both the previous and current very significant hurricanes very, very well. He's on the ground. It’s – when you have situations like that as a governor it is 24/7. It really is. He was there with the head of FEMA, and – and – you know, walking the sites, talking to individuals, working with insurance companies, bringing in the machinery. So, it is really a 24/7 job. And I don't think we can look too much into the politics of that situation.
CHUCK TODD:
I think a lot of people hope that is the explanation there because none of us want to see that stuff get tied to politics. Let me ask you about this 14th Amendment debate. And the only reason I'm asking you is it actually could – there seems to be somebody who wants to bring this case to the New Hampshire ballot. So this could have an impact about whether Donald Trump's on the ballot or not. Let me ask you: Do you expect to have to see this litigated before Donald Trump's on the New Hampshire ballot?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
No. No, no. I mean, Donald Trump is going to be – if Donald Trump follows the rules like everybody else and, you know, signs up like everybody else that's the beauty of the New Hampshire first-in-the-nation primary process. It's a very open, very easy, process for a lot of folks to partake in. And so I see no reason why he wouldn't be on that ballot. I suppose if someone wants to try to litigate it it's not really a New Hampshire issue. They're litigating it against the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore would be applicable to all 50 states. So, no, I fully expect the – the former president to be on our ballot.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask you about this – a third party movement. If Donald Trump is the nominee, Joe Biden is the nominee, we know that No Labels wants to come up with their own candidate. Are you supportive of that idea still?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Well, look, according to the polls you just showed about 70% of America is supportive of that idea to not see Trump and Biden on that ticket. I – you know, I heard someone put it once, "70% of America, if it's a Trump/Biden ticket, will be politically homeless." And I think that's a very good way to put it. They – they won't have any inspiration.
CHUCK TODD:
Is that you?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
They won't feel very confident about going forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you going to feel politically homeless?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
If it's Trump versus Biden?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
No, because they're not going to be on the top of that ticket. It's not going to be that way. Look, I – I – I think there's a good shot that neither of them are actually on that ballot. I think Trump can very much lose if they winnow it down to one-on-one. I think there's a lot of issues that are going to come to bear with President Biden over the next year and a lot of opportunity for the Democrats to find another – another candidate. But to the No Labels point, there's an opportunity there like never before. It would have to be the right candidate. It would have to be somebody very energizing and positive, transparent.
CHUCK TODD:
Would you be open to it?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Someone with a good record. No, not that I'm looking at. No, nothing I'm looking at. Look, I'm still working 24/7 to make sure the Republican Party is the best version of itself and that – that is with yesterday's news of Donald Trump and a conservative that can fulfill on all the policies that Trump brought forward that we agreed with but he just couldn't get done. He didn't get the border done. He didn't get fiscal discipline done. He didn't drain the swamp. Those are great ideas, but let's get a conservative in there that can actually do it.
CHUCK TODD:
So, there's no circumstance you would be a No Labels candidate if Donald Trump's on the ballot.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
No. No, nothing I'm looking at.
CHUCK TODD:
What concerns you more?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Sorry.
CHUCK TODD:
Four more years of Biden or four more years of Trump?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
To be honest, what concerns me more is that if we just fall into – to having both of them back on the ticket. I mean, I think you're bringing up the exact right point: This is not what America wants. It doesn't mean our primary system is broken. It means more of us have to be engaged in the system to make sure that our voice is heard as that 70% of Americans who always want to look forward. With Biden and Trump you’re – all you're doing is looking backwards and relitigating a lot of drama. Nobody wants that. Everybody wants to move forward in a positive way, have a transparent government, have government and institutions they can trust. We've got amazing institutions in this country, but there's a lack of trust there. So it happens by bringing transparency, removing politics, and just getting back to getting stuff done.
CHUCK TODD:
And impeachment of Joe Biden, healthy for the country? Good idea by House Republicans?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Impeachment of any president is an unhealthy thing for the country. I mean, that would be a terrible, terrible situation. Now, you have to figure out what happened there. I mean, there's – there’s no doubt that there's a lot of unanswered questions with the Hunter Biden issue. But, no, let's be clear. Impeachment is a terrible thing for America. It – it – it brings everybody down. It rocks the system, if you will. Doesn't bring it to its foundations, but it does rock it. And we should – we need to be more positive going forward, given all the economic crises, that not just that we have today but as bad as it is going to come. Believe me, this economy's getting a lot worse before it's getting better. It's going to get very hard.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious. This political environment, you know, I've looked at all these special elections this year, there's been some other analysis, Democrats are over-performing anywhere. You've seen it in your home state, where some Democrats have won special elections that normally Republicans win. Is this due to abortion? Is this due to Trump? What do you think it's about?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
It's about the former president more than anything. And I can tell you, I've had school board members – Republican school board members that have lost their seats because they felt like they had to constantly answer for being a Trump Republican and all of that. It's a – it’s a negative brand. It puts a lot of hesitation. So it isn't just the federal seats. It's the governorships, the school board, the congressional seats, all of them, especially here in a place like New Hampshire, where, you know, we can kind of go back and forth. We're very independent-minded. The Trump brand just doesn't work. It really doesn't. And so to kind of clear that off the table once and for all is a huge opportunity for Republicans to – to get back elected officials where the policy matters most, and that's at the local level.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Chris Sununu, Republican from New Hampshire, I always enjoy going back and forth with you. Appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir.
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU:
Thank you, buddy.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, my friend. When we come back, with tensions rising between the United States and China, can the world's two biggest economies stay in business with each other? The Commerce Secretary, Gina Raimondo, joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. As many of you know, the United States-China relationship is at its lowest level in decades. With mounting sides, both nations may be preparing for a future conflict: from spy balloons, to other forms of espionage and hacking, to deepening military alliances on both sides. Now - could a tiny microchip spark World War Three? Nowhere are tensions more apparent than in the fight over these tiny, little chips: semiconductors, microchips that power everything from microwaves to cars to weapons systems. More than 90% of the world's advanced semiconductors are made in Taiwan. If China invades Taiwan, the U.S. could have trouble meeting its own demand for microchips. Beijing wants to boost its semiconductor capacity to become more economically resilient, and possibly to prepare its own military for an invasion of Taiwan. And joining me now just back from a trip to China is the Secretary of Commerce, Gina Raimondo. Secretary Raimondo, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Thank you. Good morning.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with the fact that this is the fourth trip that a major administration official has made basically since the summer began with Secretary Blinken. Secretary Yellen went over there. Former Senator Kerry on climate talks went over there, and now you. And it feels as if – it's sort of in a relationship here. We're making all the effort. We're trying to reach out to them, as we try to turn down the temperature. We've yet to see reciprocation from them. At what point do we stop asking?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Yeah. First, let me say that my counterpart, the Chinese Minister of Commerce, Minister Wang, did come to see me in the spring, and invited me to China. Which is – you know, I accepted his invitation. So, it's not entirely true. He came here. It was a good visit. But you make a good point. And kind of the theme of my trip was we need dialogue, we need contact and communication, but we also need action. You know, in my trip, even the most senior Chinese officials said all of the right things, said that they wanted to have a robust commercial relationship, and treat American businesses fairly on the ground in China. And my message was, "Actions speak louder than words." So I think you make a fair point and we're looking to see whether China does do a better job at treating U.S. businesses fairly, and workers, you know, leveling the playing field for our workers.
CHUCK TODD:
But insult to injury was they hacked your email right before you went. I mean, it almost like that’s a thumbing – it almost feels like they were thumbing their nose at us. "Okay, yeah. You can come visit. But we're going to do our best to find out everything you already know anyway." I mean and I know you confronted them with this. I saw that report. But it does send a message of, "We're not that interested in engaging."
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
You know, look this a – they did hack me, which was unappreciated, to say the least. I brought it up, clearly. Put it right on the table. By the way, I brought up all – many of our grievances on behalf of our national security concerns, concerns of U.S. labor, concerns of U.S. business. Didn't pull any punches. Still though, it's a complicated relationship. There's no doubt about it. We are in a fierce competition with China at every level and anyone who tells you differently is naive. All of that being said, we have to manage this competition. Conflict is in no one's interest. We need to manage the competition responsibly. That's good for America. That's good for the world. And in that respect, I think our commercial relationship, which is very large and growing, and underpins hundreds of thousands of U.S. jobs, our commercial relationship, if stable, can be kind of a ballast for the entire relationship. And anything we do that can create stability is, in fact, good for the American people.
CHUCK TODD:
When I look at their economy and I look at our economy, I know how the American public views our economy right now, but when you compare the two economies, we're in a lot better shape post-COVID than Chinese – China is domestically on that front. Is that our real goal here? Do we think that maybe they'll essentially cry uncle and they'll realize, "We got to stop this antagonistic relationship with the U.S. because we need to improve our domestic economy"? Is that what – is that our ultimate negotiating leverage?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Look, I'll say this. It's clearly true, the facts speak for themselves on this one, that when China was more market-oriented and reform-minded, their economy, you know, they lifted hundreds of millions of people out of poverty. I was in Shanghai. It's quite stunning to see the progress Shanghai's made in the past 20 years. And that – so it's clearly true that when they were more market-focused and reform-oriented, Chinese economy was stronger. And so that's my point. It's not so much leverage, it's that it does seem to be true that it's in their self-interest to be less antagonistic to U.S. business.
CHUCK TODD:
Is this – is this issue here – are we going to – are we going to be allowing American companies – are we going to be exporting superconductor chips to China in a way that China doesn't feel like we're trying to choke their military technology and other things like that?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
We are trying to choke their military capacity. So if they feel that, that means our strategy's working. We are not going to – certainly on my watch, we are not going to sell the most sophisticated American chip to China that they want for their military capacity.
CHUCK TODD:
Are we going to prevent any company from doing that?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
But that being said –
CHUCK TODD:
You can't do business with the United States in this industry if you want to sell those chips to China, correct? We're going to – we’re going to stick to that?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Absolutely. Yes. But I do want to be clear. We will also still continue to sell, you know, billions of dollars of chips a year to China because the vast majority of chips that are made are – are not the leading edge, cutting edge that I'm talking about. It's hard. That's hard for people to accept. It's kind of a nuanced, complex message and policy reality. But it is the reality because, you know, export controls are about national security, not an economic advantage. So we're going to be as strict as strict can be, and as hardline as possible, denying China the most sophisticated chips. But we're also going to sell, you know, like I said, billions of dollars of less sophisticated chips, which by the way, Chuck, is good for America. Creates revenue for American companies, which they can plow back into research and development, which allows us to lead the world in innovation.
CHUCK TODD:
Two quick questions, one having to do with the largest agency inside of commerce, which most of our viewers may not realize is NOAA, but that comes under your purview. There was a disturbing report earlier this week that the hurricane hunter planes were essentially out of commission. Two are under repair. A third one was in use to track Idalia, but then it went under repair. What's the situation? Do we have out-of-date equipment? Is this a funding issue, or was it just bad luck?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
So first of all, I want to be clear. They did complete their mission. The hurricane hunters did complete their mission. In fact, they're not allowed to continue to fly once the hurricane hits land. It's too dangerous. So, you know, we got the job done. The rest of it was routine maintenance. One of these planes had been flying nonstop for 12 days, and so had to go down for maintenance. All of that being said, we do need more resources and Congress has just given us more resources. These planes are really expensive, as you might imagine and we will continue to work with Congress. We plan to ask for even more resources because we need to get the job done.
CHUCK TODD:
It's going to be a busy hurricane season. Are these planes going to be able to do it job for the next 60 days, which is the heat of – height of hurricane season?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Yes. We will make sure that happens.
CHUCK TODD:
And finally, your interactions with President Biden. Are you confident he's got the ability to serve a full second term?
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
100%. I talked to him right before I left for China. He gave me the best advice of about 200 people that I spoke with. I talked to business leaders, other folks in the administration. He was sharp. He was clear. He's got a ton of energy, and I'm so excited to be on his team.
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary Gina Raimondo, the former Governor of Rhode Island, by the way, for one or two terms there. Thanks for coming on, sharing your perspective.
SEC. GINA RAIMONDO:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, new questions this week about Senator Mitch McConnell's health are making it harder for Republicans to point fingers at President Biden about his age. The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here: NBC News chief Washington correspondent and the chief foreign affairs correspondent, Andrea Mitchell; Jake Sherman, co-founder of Punchbowl News; former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson; and longtime Republican strategist Sara Fagen. Welcome to all of you. All right. Let me play a little bit of what happened to Mitch McConnell earlier this week.
[START TAPE]
REPORTER:
What are your thoughts on running for reelection in 2026?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
What are my thoughts about what?
REPORTER:
Running for reelection in 2026.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Oh. That's –
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
That would go on for another about 15 seconds. Jake Sherman, just after that moment National Review came out, called for him to step down. Everybody comes back this week. I imagine this Senate Republican lunch is going to be the most important McConnell's had in a while.
JAKE SHERMAN:
I think that's right. Listen, McConnell world is very locked down even in best of times, so we don't really have a good idea. I'm not a doctor. We're not physicians. But a few things are clear. Number one, Senate Republicans are worried. I mean, this is all the talk of Senate Republican leadership and rank and file right now. They wonder whether he'll last the year in the Senate. I think – that's something I've heard incessantly over the last couple days. He can't really afford to have another one of these episodes in public. But listen, I talked to people who were with him the night this – after this happened, and they said he was fine. He was energized. He was on point. He was really sharp.
CHUCK TODD:
Sara Fagen, this feels like, you know, House conservatives don't like him, right? He has this unique thing that he makes both the left and the right mad on this front.
SARA FAGEN:
Sure.
CHUCK TODD:
Does that add to some political pressure on him?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I think it certainly makes him a little bit more of a target, you know. I mean, I appreciate the comment that he can't afford one more of these episodes in public, but we have a president had – who's also had episodes where he's gotten confused on stage and nobody is saying, "The president can't afford one more of these episodes."
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, I think a lot of people are saying that actually, but it's okay.
SARA FAGEN:
I think – look, we have to be careful not to conflate age with a recovery. And, yes, Mitch McConnell is older, but he had a concussion, and the medical community appears to be saying that this can be a natural, you know, issue when somebody's recovering from a concussion. So nobody cares about the Senate more than Mitch McConnell. I'm confident if he's able to serve he'll be serving.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, Andrea?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
I think the only person more concerned about his future is Joe Biden because the future of a government potential shutdown, of any kind of agreement, it's Mitch McConnell who has been saying openly to the House that he didn't agree to their spending levels that they had changed from the previous budget agreement. So Mitch McConnell is the key to any kind of bipartisan action up there. But I think – in fairness, I don't think it's age or the concussion. In reading what the neurologists are saying, and they haven't examined him, but from a lot of symptoms that they see in his eyes and in the way he responded he does need medical help because recurrent, if it's a seizure or a small stroke, a TIA, you need help in order to -- there's medication. But this kind of high-pressure job is not the place – not the way to go.
CHUCK TODD:
Jeh?
JEH JOHNSON:
1998, my first Senate confirmation hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee, was chaired by 96-year-old Strom Thurmond.
CHUCK TODD:
How'd that go?
JEH JOHNSON:
He worked entirely off of index cards. And when he wandered off the index card everybody in the room would hold their breath. The reality was he was carried by his staff and by his Senate colleagues in a different time and place. Now, in the Senate and the White House there are just far too many cameras or far too many iPhones, and it's difficult to hide your age.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
And every time the McConnell issue comes up –
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
– people talk about Biden's age in the same story.
CHUCK TODD:
Oh, every McConnell moment is terrible politics for Biden.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Right.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Let me just add one thing. I have a lot of interactions with Mitch McConnell. He is as – I don't see any slippage mentally from Mitch McConnell. I mean, he is as sharp as –
CHUCK TODD:
But these are clearly incidents. These are moments in time.
SARA FAGEN:
And his leader – the staff around him says that, you know, that he is as sharp as he was. His schedule in August was the same as it was last year.
CHUCK TODD:
But I'm curious. Do you think there's going to be political pressure that, "Hey, we want to make this an issue on Biden, so we can't let McConnell do that"?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
I think they're going to make an issue of Biden in any case. They have no reluctance in doing that.
CHUCK TODD:
Sure. But I sort of compare it equivalent to, like, why did Al Franken get thrown under the bus when he got thrown under the bus? Because of the special election timing. Political timing sometimes impacts these things.
SARA FAGEN:
I think that's a good point by some conservatives who have no love lost for Mitch McConnell that it becomes a convenient argument. But it doesn't make it right.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
The more it comes from Marjorie Taylor Greene the better it is for him in the Senate because there's so much resentment in the Senate against any House criticism --
SARA FAGEN:
I agree with that.
JAKE SHERMAN:
Listen, McConnell has an unusually strong grip on the Senate Republican Conference. He survived a very lame, I would say, challenge from Rick Scott. Sixteen people voted against him. He has the support of his people.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Let's talk about this idea: can Speaker McCarthy effectively use impeachment to keep the government open, Sara? It’s an interesting – and I feel like he's gotten caught doing this now, and it's kind of an open secret that that's what he's trying to pull off here. Is that possible?
SARA FAGEN:
Well, I think, look, he has been incredibly effective. You know, you just think back to his election and all the --
CHUCK TODD:
Bar was low, but he has surpassed it.
SARA FAGEN:
But, no, all the difficult circumstances, you know, in the course of his speakership where he has figured out how to move the caucus forward and how to move the country forward. And so I have a lot of confidence he will figure that out. Look, I think there is growing concern, legitimate concern, around what happened in Hunter Biden's business dealings and what connection did it have to the current president. And now there's, you know, a big trove of emails released that, you know, appear to be, you know, by a pseudonym. An impeachment investigation doesn't necessarily mean an impeachment.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SARA FAGEN:
But because there are so many unanswered questions it's a reasonable step to take.
JEH JOHNSON:
Look, I'm sorry, that's an impeachment inquiry in search of a crime. That's not what impeachment is for. Nixon was Watergate. Clinton was Monica Lewinsky. Trump was Ukraine then January 6th. If we're moving into a world where we conduct impeachment inquiries simply to find a crime that's a poor place to be.
SARA FAGEN:
I don't disagree with you. But we have a problem at the Justice Department where it doesn't appear to be independent. And you kind of look at the fact pattern of, you know, the plea deal that fell apart and you start to, you know, have whistleblowers inside the government who are raising questions about, you know, justice officials. And so what is the House Republican Caucus supposed to do to get answers, you know?
JEH JOHNSON:
I assure you, Merrick Garland is very independent.
CHUCK TODD:
So, Jake, where does this – how does this get resolved?
JAKE SHERMAN:
A few things. Number one, the government's going to shut down at some point between now and the end of the year. I think that's a near certainty. Number two, if they open an impeachment inquiry, which I believe they will, they will impeach Biden. They're not going to open an inquiry and then --
CHUCK TODD:
Weirdly enough, once they go down this road it'd be worse politics for them with the base if they didn't do it.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
There's never been one without a vote. They always vote when there's an impeachment except for Nixon when he quit.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, he has now said there's going to be a vote. So Don Bacon's got a vote, right?
JAKE SHERMAN:
I don't think they have the votes for an impeachment inquiry right now. I don't. And number three just really quickly, if the government shuts down they could still impeach him. I think it's a false equivalency McCarthy's making.
CHUCK TODD:
Jeh, you're here, and I want to take advantage of the fact that we had some headlines over the weekend that the migrant – at the border there's been a surge. A lot of families crossing with kids. It's triple than what it was. It was sort of like because the first two weeks went well they thought they were in the clear. Not so much.
JEH JOHNSON:
Yes, we got a break in May, but the surge that we see now was bound to happen. You have I'm sure heard me say dozens of times now that illegal immigration on our southern border reacts sharply and quickly to perceived changes in our enforcement policy. But as long as the underlying push factors persist the numbers are always going to revert back to their longer-term trend lines.
CHUCK TODD:
And here we are, and will become a political football as well. Thank you, guys. Appreciate this. When we come back, the U.S. population keeps growing, but the number of seats in the House of Representatives hasn't changed since William Howard Taft was president. Is Congress too small? Data Download is next.
CHUCK TODD:
We are back. Data Download time. As the population of our country has grown, the size of the House of Representatives has not. But why not? It's leading to questions about how representative the people's house really is. Doesn't have to be this way because it wasn't always the case. Believe it or not, it's only been over the last hundred years that we haven't expanded the House. To refresh, we're at 435 House members, and it comes out to one per 765,000 Americans. That ratio is actually quite big. In the Taft administration when we were still expanding the House every ten years or so, we were at one per 210,000. But we stopped expanding the House a little over a hundred years ago, and we have ballooned to where we are today. And it actually puts us outside the norm in Western democracies when you compare our lower chamber in the legislative branch to other lower chambers, the ones most connected to the population. We're one per 750 essentially. Japan is one per 272. Mexico, one per 250,000. You see here South Korea, Australia, all much lower ratios than ours, leading folks to say, "Maybe this ought to change." In fact, Democratic congressman from Oregon Earl Blumenauer has introduced a bill that would expand the House of Representatives by 150 seats for the 2030 census to get our ratio down to about one per 500,000 residents, having a little more of a closer – get a member of Congress a little more of a – of a tighter community, they might be – be more representative of the people on the ground. So what would this do to congressional delegations across the country? Well, Delaware and the two Dakotas might actually double in size, go from one member of Congress to two. Alaska, Vermont, and Wyoming – who are all still one seat – would probably still only have one. But take a look at this. This is how the delegations would change in the big states. California would go from 52 congressional seats to 70. Texas, 38 to 51. Florida and New York both would expand by ten congressional seats, Pennsylvania by six. So it would be quite the change to our Electoral College. But guess what? It might make members of Congress in Washington a little more connected to the people on the ground. When we come back, he's consistently underestimated, and he blames the media for his poor approval ratings. President Biden's first two years in office are the subject of a new book by journalist and author Franklin Foer. He joins me next. But before we go to break, former Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico died on Friday at his home in Chatham, Massachusetts. Richardson's career in public life spanned more than four decades. He served as Energy secretary, ambassador to the United Nations. For 14 years, he was a member of Congress and for two terms the governor of New Mexico. In 2007, he launched a short-lived presidential campaign, and he ended up dropping out and endorsed Barack Obama. But in recent years, Richardson was best known as a savvy international negotiator who secured the release of hostages and political prisoners from North Korea and Myanmar to Russia, where he worked for months to get WNBA star Brittney Griner home. Richardson appeared on this show 23 times. Here he was in 2007 pitching his presidential campaign.
[START TAPE]
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON:
Look, I'm an insurgent candidate. You've got to do things differently. I'm also positive. You know, politicians take themselves too seriously. I am trying to get over the fact that this should be an election not necessarily based on celebrity, not necessarily based on who has the most money, which I don't. But I am competitive. I'll have enough to get my message over. But that the American people need somebody that can bring this country together.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
In my interactions with him, he truly practiced the joy of politics. Bill Richardson was 75.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Franklin Foer’s deeply reported account of President Biden’s two years in office paints the portrait of a 20th century politician figuring out how to govern in the post-Trump era at a time when crisis follows crisis and democracy appears to be in peril. In one anecdote, Foer describes the aftermath of this striking Biden ad-lib in Warsaw last year where he seemed to call for regime change in Russia.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
For God's sake this man cannot remain in power.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Foer writes, "He knew that he had erred, but then resented his aids for creating the impression that they had cleaned up his mess. Rather than owning his failure he fumed to his friends about how he was treated like a toddler. Was John Kennedy ever babied like that?" And Franklin Foer, the author of “The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House and the Struggle for America's Future,” joins me now. Franklin, welcome to Meet The Press.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Thanks so much for having me.
CHUCK TODD:
Good to see you. So let's just start with the point you're trying to make when calling him the last politician.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Right. So, Donald Trump has certainly broke our national psyche when it came to thinking about politics, and Joe Biden has become a very distant figure to a lot of the public. And some of it has to do with his age, but a lot of it has to do with the comparison to the last guy in office. Biden doesn't suggest people ingest bleach. He doesn't flush documents down the toilet. But he's a fascinating character, and I wanted to capture a lot of that. He's somebody who's always been underestimated, and that's been the diesel that's propelled his career. He's somebody who thinks of himself as a stubborn contrarian. Indeed, when there are moments like Afghanistan, he's managed to resist all the pressure that's piled up on him. And he is somebody who's been around politics forever. He's studied politics, and he has a lot of interesting, very singular, very quirky techniques that he uses to get things done.
CHUCK TODD:
He believes politics is personal. That at the end of the day it's relationships, whether you're dealing with China or you're dealing with Joe Manchin.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Yeah, it's emotional intelligence essentially in his view.
CHUCK TODD:
He's an EQ guy not an IQ guy.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Exactly. And his strength as a politician is his ability to sit across from somebody and to think about them, to understand their psychological makeup, to understand what their self-interests are, and what the things they're going to be most vain about, and what will be the touch points that will trip them off. And so he takes that into account in his calculus.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's talk about this issue of “Is he over-handled? Is it because of his age?” – that anecdote about the Warsaw speech was interesting. And then you wrote this pretty late in your book. You said, "And his advanced years were a hindrance, depriving him of the energy to cast a robust public presence or the ability to easily conjure a name. It was striking that he took so few morning meetings or presided over so few public events before 10:00 a.m. His public persona reflected physical decline and time’s dulling of mental faculties that no poll or exercise regime can resist. In private he would even occasionally admit to friends that he felt tired." How much does this impact West Wing operations?
FRANKLIN FOER:
Right. Well, it doesn't take Bob Woodward to understand that Joe Biden is old. And I'm not a gerontologist, and I can't predict how the next couple years will age Joe Biden. I think what my
book does is shows that he is somebody who, for whom – he's buried in details. He's somebody who is very technocratically obsessed with the intricacies of policy. He's a very activist president, in that he micromanages a lot of the dealings in the White House. When it comes to something like talking –
CHUCK TODD:
But you don't see that.
FRANKLIN FOER:
You don't see that.
CHUCK TODD:
What you're describing is much different than his public persona.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that's so interesting about Joe Biden is that he has these insecurities that govern a lot of the ways in which he moves through the world. And so one of his primary insecurities is that he doesn't want to be perceived as stupid because he had this plagiarism scandal back in the 1980s. And so when he walks into an interview or he walks into a press conference he wants to have mastery of what he's discussing. And so his prep sessions can go on for long periods of time.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Let me ask you this way. If at the end of this calendar year Joe Biden announces that he's not going to seek a second term, based on all your reporting, how much of a surprise will that be to you?
FRANKLIN FOER:
I would say it would be a sm – it would be a surprise to me, but it wouldn't be a total surprise to me.
CHUCK TODD:
Wouldn't be a total shock.
FRANKLIN FOER:
It wouldn't be a total shock.
CHUCK TODD:
Why's that?
FRANKLIN FOER:
When he talks about his life he uses this word “fate” constantly. Joe Biden is a very religious guy, and fate is a word loaded with religious meaning. And he always talks about he can't say where fate goes. And so I always, when I hear that, to me it's the ellipses in the sentence when he's talking about his own future that I account for in thinking about his calculus.
CHUCK TODD:
Jill Biden's role here, is it as involved as a Nancy Reagan? That we've learned in time was very involved in the Reagan administration and to protect Reagan.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Yeah. Well, one of the things I should say about Jill Biden is that she is, she is his – probably his closest advisor at the end of the day. They have these sweet moments in the morning where she'll tape things up onto the mirror in order to give him encouraging words. And when it comes to certain policies, like education, she's way deep into the weeds, and she has a lot of, a lot of sway on those issues. And also she's a proxy for Biden because Biden doesn't go out on the road as much. And the thing about her, as opposed to Nancy Reagan, is that nobody hates Jill Biden so she's able to go out there in a way which most first ladies aren't able to.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, he’s had – ever since the Afghanistan withdrawal his polls have been upside down.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Yes.
CHUCK TODD:
And you talk about the frustration I think Biden himself has. You write, "Biden considered his poor approval rating a failure of the media, which someone neglected to note all the ways in which his administration was superior to Trump's. It was also a failure of his own White House to effectively communicate. He complained that there weren't enough surrogate on television defending him." I'm shocked to find out that a White House believes they have a communications problem, not a substance problem.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Right. So I think that Biden has – of course, every president who suffers an upside-down approval rating is going to moan about the media. And I think that there is some truth to it in his case, where Trump caused the media to go so – to become so emotional, to get so engaged in covering all of the high drama. And I think with the Biden administration there's this – there’s been this desire on the part of the press to reassert its standards of objectivity. And so I think on certain measures he's probably right. He has been covered probably tougher than he deserves. But also I think –
CHUCK TODD:
There's no curve. He's not being graded on a curve?
FRANKLIN FOER:
No, no, no.
CHUCK TODD:
One last question. The relationship with Kamala Harris, as you write, "At the beginning, Biden said they would have weekly lunches. But those began to fall off his schedule." What is the relationship?
FRANKLIN FOER:
Right. Well, the vice presidency is a premise for a comic show on HBO, and it's hard for anybody to be vice president. And I think it's especially hard to be a former vice president's vice president. Obama and Biden had a very –
CHUCK TODD:
He’s not empathetic to her? It does feel like you would think he'd be empathetic.
FRANKLIN FOER:
He is. He's extremely empathetic.
CHUCK TODD:
And helpful.
FRANKLIN FOER:
He's extremely empathetic to her. Obama used to talk about, "my vice president," which is a phrase that got under Joe Biden's skin. And so he's very respectful of her. He calls her “the vice president.” That's very significant for him. But the difference is that Obama had holes in his resume that he wanted Biden to fill, and Biden doesn't see the holes in his own resume because he's been around forever. And it leaves her stranded.
CHUCK TODD:
Franklin Foer, it was a terrific read and definitely worth your time. Congratulations.
FRANKLIN FOER:
Thank you so much.