KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, war in Israel. Prime Minister Netanyahu declares Israel is at war after Hamas militants launched a surprise attack from Gaza. Hundreds have been killed and thousands wounded. Israeli soldiers and civilians have been taken as hostages.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The United States stands with Israel. We will not ever fail to have their back. This is not a moment for any party hostile to Israel to exploit these attacks to seek advantage.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How should the U.S. respond to the crisis? My guests this morning Secretary of State Antony Blinken and Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley. Plus, Republican rebellion
REP. STEVE WOMACK:
The office of Speaker of the House of the United States House of Representatives is hereby declared vacant.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The House votes to remove Kevin McCarthy as speaker, leaving the House without a leader for the first time in history.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Nobody trusts Kevin Mccarthy. Getting 200 Republicans to trust you isn’t enough to stay speaker.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
I don’t regret choosing governing over grievance.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will Republicans be able to unite to pick a new speaker? I'll talk to Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida who led to move to oust McCarthy. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell, NBC News Senior Capitol Hill Correspondent Garrett Haake, Wall Street Journal Columnist Peggy Noonan and Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinion writer for the Boston Globe. Welcome to Sunday It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. Israel is at war after Hamas launched a surprise multi-front attack from Gaza which Israel says has killed more than 300 and wounded at least 1500. The timing adding to the devastation. It's the largest attack on the state of Israel since the 1973 Arab-Israeli War almost exactly 50 years ago. The bombardment began with thousands of rockets launched into Israel. Hamas gunmen used explosives to breach the border fence, crossing with motorcycles, pick up trucks, paragliders and boats. Israel’s military confirms both civilians and soldiers have been abducted, taken as hostages into Gaza. More than 300 people have been killed in Gaza in retaliatory strikes and nearly 2000 wounded. This morning the war threatens to expand as Israel exchanged strikes with Hezbollah in the north. The attack comes at a time of deep divisions and political instability in Israel, and as the U.S., Israel and Saudi Arabia have been negotiating what would be an historic diplomatic agreement, opposed by Iran. Everyone was caught off guard in a stunning intelligence failure, from Israel to Washington, with one senior U.S. military official saying "we were not tracking this." On Saturday, a flurry of urgent calls. President Biden speaking with Prime Minister Netanyahu.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The United States stands with Israel. We will not ever fail to have their back. We'll make sure that they have the help their citizens need, and they can continue to defend themselves.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
My colleague Raf Sanchez is on the ground in Sderot, Israel. And, Raf, we see the disturbing images behind you. What is the very latest there?
RAF SANCHEZ:
Yeah, Kristen, I am standing in front of all that remains of an Israeli police station that was overrun by Hamas gunmen yesterday. This was the scene of a 20-hour, very intense gun battle as Israeli forces tried to regain control. And if my colleague Dave Copeland just swings the camera around here, you can see, Kristen, all over this scene, we are seeing cars like this in ruins. There is a boot from what may be a member of the Israeli security forces. And back there, in the rubble, Kristen, all morning, we have been watching as they have been pulling bodies out of the debris. Under our feet are the shell casings, a sign of how intense the fighting was and overhead, we are hearing Israeli fighter jets carrying out a punishing round of air strikes inside of Gaza. But more than 24 hours on from this surprise attack, Israeli forces are still not fully in control on the ground. There are reports of continued fighting with pockets of Palestinian militants. And as we drive the highways of southern Israel, we are seeing all evidence pointing to a large-scale Israeli ground incursion in the works. We are seeing tanks and artillery being moved into position. Now, Kristen, that would be a complex military operation. But on top of that, it is a hostage rescue operation unlike anything, perhaps, the world has ever seen. The Israeli military has now confirmed that there are both Israeli soldiers and civilians being held captive
by Hamas, by Palestinian Islamic Jihad inside of Gaza. Some of the videos we have seen on social media are absolutely harrowing: a young woman who was attending a dance party in the fields near Gaza being carried away on the back of a motorcycle, videos then showing her inside Gaza. But this morning, her fate is unknown along with the fates of so many other of these Israeli captives, these Israeli hostages. And you can guarantee, Kristen, that that is weighing very heavily on the minds of Israeli decision makers, from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on down, as they try to figure out what is the best course of action to get these people back safe and to exact what Prime Minister Netanyahu says will be massive retaliation for this surprise attack. Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Those images just devastating. Raf Sanchez, thank you. Please do continue to stay safe. And joining me now is Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Mr. Secretary, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Morning, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, the big question on everyone's mind, Mr. Secretary: How did Israel – how did the United States miss what Hamas was planning?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, first, put this in perspective. And you've heard this from your correspondents, as well. This is the worst attack on Israel since the Yom Kippur War in 1973, almost exactly 50 years ago. But there's also a big difference. That was a state-on-state conflict, army against army with clear front lines. This is a massive terrorist attack targeting Israeli civilians, gunning people down in the streets of their towns, gunning them down in their homes, dragging Israelis, men, women, and children, across the border with Gaza, a Holocaust survivor in a wheelchair, women and children all being taken hostage. So, you can imagine the impact this is having in Israel, and it should be revolting to people around the world. There will be plenty of time to figure out whether the intelligence should have done something different to see this coming. Right now, the entire focus is on supporting Israel, making sure that it has what it needs, as President Biden pledged to Prime Minister Netanyahu when they spoke yesterday, has what it needs to deal with this attack from Hamas, to make sure that it has control over its own territory, and that it takes the necessary steps so that there's accountability, and to try to ensure to the best of its ability that this doesn't happen again. We've been on the phones constantly since early yesterday morning, the president, myself, everyone throughout our government, working around the world both to build up that support and to get countries to use the influence they may have with Hamas to get it to cease and desist.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Mr. Secretary, do you acknowledge that both Israeli intelligence officials and U.S. intelligence officials were caught off guard here?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
This is an attack that I don't think anyone saw coming in the immediate. And, as I said, this –
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, was it an intelligence failure, Mr. Secretary? Do you acknowledge it was an intelligence failure?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
The Israelis will have plenty of time to look into that. All of us will have time to look into that. The focus now has to be on making sure that Israel has what it needs to deal with this attack and to make sure that its citizens are safe and secure. That's the entire focus. Now, more broadly, we have been intensely concerned about the possibility of violence in the region. We have been working intensely with Israelis and Palestinians in other countries to try to make sure that that was avoided. The challenge is this: we brought Israelis and Palestinians together in Aqaba and Sharm al-Sheikh to make sure that neither took steps that could lead to conflict. And that was an ongoing effort. But Hamas was not involved, because Hamas is a terrorist organization. And the difference maker here is you have a terrorist group that's undertaken these actions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, does the administration know at this point if U.S. citizens were among the dead or those taken hostage?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
So, we have reports that several Americans may be among the dead. We are very actively working to verify those reports. Similarly, we've seen reports about – about hostages. And there, again, we're very actively trying to verify them and nail that down.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Meaning that there could be some U.S. citizens who have been taken hostage as well, Mr. Secretary?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
That's correct.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And does the United States have a role given that, and more broadly speaking, in securing the release of the hostages that have been taken, both Israeli hostages, and U.S. hostages, and any other nationalities?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, Kristen, first, I'm not going to get ahead of the facts. We need to establish the facts. Second, any American anywhere who is being detained or held hostage, that is going to be a priority for – for this government, for this administration, and for me. But I don't want to get ahead of where we are. We have reports. We need to verify them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Did Iran play a role in this attack, Mr. Secretary? What was the administration assessed in that regard?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
So, Kristen, Iran and Hamas have a long relationship. Hamas wouldn't be Hamas without the support it's had for many years from Iran. In this moment, we don't have anything that shows us that Iran was directly involved in this attack, in planning it or in carrying it out. But that's something we're looking at very carefully, and we've got to see where the facts lead. But we do know that Iran's had a long relationship with Hamas, long support. It's one of the reasons that we have been aggressively working to counter Iran, including sanctioning more than 400 Iranians – more than 400 – and companies, precisely for things like the support it's provided to Hamas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And we're learning just this morning that two Israeli tourists and their Egyptian guide were killed in Egypt. This comes as major cities around our country are enhancing security at synagogues and other religious institutions. How concerned should Americans be about a potential attack here, Mr. Secretary?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, we haven't – we haven’t seen indications of that. But, of course, we're on guard around the world. We're on guard wherever American citizens may be and could be endangered. And, of course, we're always on guard in the United States. But when it comes to the region as a whole, look, I was on the phone yesterday with my counterparts from Egypt, from Saudi Arabia, from Jordan, from Qatar, from the United Arab Emirates, from Turkey, from European countries.
And a big part of that was trying to make sure that everyone was doing everything they can to ensure security, and to ensure safety, and to use whatever influence they have to get Hamas to back down, and also to make sure that others don't try to take advantage of the situation. You heard the president speak to this very clearly. He issued a pretty stark warning that no one anywhere should try to take advantage of what's happening in Israel.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And speaking of Saudi Arabia, of course this comes against the backdrop of the United States, Saudi Arabia, Israel having discussions about a potential deal to normalize relations, which would have further isolated Iran. What, if any, role do you think those talks may have played in these attacks? And does this effectively mean that those talks are now dead?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
It's no surprise that those who are opposed to the talks, those who are opposed to Israel normalizing its relations with its neighbors and with countries beyond the region, are Hamas, Hezbollah, and Iran. And so, it's entirely possible that one of the motivations for this attack was to try to derail these efforts to advance normalization, something that is very hard. There are a lot of really challenging issues to work through. We're in the process of trying to do that. But the result would be, if we were able to get there, a much different path for the region and for the future: a path of greater stability, of greater integration, of people working together to better their lives. That's in stark contrast to the path that's offered by Hamas: a path of violence, killing, horror, terror, a path that offers absolutely nothing to the Palestinian people. In fact, what it offers is more suffering, not less. So, it's a pretty stark choice. And the fact that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran are lined up against that vision I think speaks volumes. At the same time, as we're pursuing normalization, it's imperative that it not be a substitute for Israelis and Palestinians resolving the differences between them. On the contrary, it needs to be something that actually advances that prospect and supports it. But right now, in the immediate, the focus is on helping Israel deal with this attack from Hamas. That's what we're focused on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Mr. Secretary, as you know, Republican candidates have been criticizing the administration for the deal that you just struck with Iran to release five American detainees in exchange for some Iranian detainees as well as releasing $6 billion. Your officials have already said Iran has not yet seen a cent of that money, but how do you respond to Republican critics who say that that deal funded the attack on Israel?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, it's very unfortunate that some are playing politics at a time when so many lives have been lost and Israel remains under attack. Here are the facts. The facts are that these were not – these were not U.S. taxpayer dollars. These were Iranian resources that it had accumulated from the sale of its oil that were stuck in a bank in South Korea. From day one, under our law, under our sanctions going back many years. It's always had the right to use those funds for humanitarian purposes: for food, for medicine, for medical equipment. The funds were moved from one bank to another where it could more easily do that but under the close supervision of the U.S. Treasury Department. In other words –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
– Treasury will verify any –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, I don't want –
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
No, it's important we get these facts right, because here's what's going on. Again, not a single cent has been spent from that account. When any money is spent from that account, it can only be used for medical supplies, for food, for medicine. And those who are saying otherwise are either misinformed or misinforming, and it's wrong either way.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you say about the argument that money is fungible, so Iran may have known this money is coming and used other funds to help fund this attack that happened –
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Iran has – Iran has, unfortunately, always used and focused its funds on supporting terrorism, on supporting groups like Hamas. And it's done that when there have been sanctions. It's done that when there haven't been sanctions. And it's always prioritized that. And, again, I come back to the proposition that these funds have always been, under the law, available to Iran to use for humanitarian purposes. The Trump administration set up a very similar mechanism to enable Iran to use these kinds of assets for humanitarian purposes. We've done the same thing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, very quickly before we go, as you know, there is currently no speaker of the House. Congress is in a state of paralysis. Is Congress able to respond should Israel ask for more aid from the United States? What's your message there?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Hmm. So, Kristen, there's a tremendous amount of aid and assistance already in the pipeline. Back under President Obama, we signed a so-called memorandum of understanding with Israel that provides it with $3.8 billion a year in defense assistance. And much of that is ongoing. The contracts are moving forward. We do a lot of co-production with them. A lot is in the pipeline. At the same time, Israel has come to us and asked for some specific additional assistance. I'm sure you'll hear more about that probably later today. And we're responding to that, and we have the ability to do that. Now, as a general proposition, it would be very important to make sure that we have both houses of Congress, on a bipartisan basis, in a place where they can clearly show and express their support for Israel, especially in this hour of need. And so, that's something we want to see, and we hope that that happens quickly.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Secretary Blinken, thank you so much for joining us. We will look for that announcement about more aid later today. Really appreciate it. And when we come back, Republican presidential candidate Nikki Haley joins me. The former Trump U.N. ambassador weighs in as the GOP is seeing growing divisions in the party when it comes to foreign intervention in conflicts around the globe.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Republican candidates for president were quick to condemn the attack on Israel, and to blame President Biden.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The Israeli attack was made because we are perceived as being weak and ineffective, and with a really weak leader.
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
The Iranians are funding Hamas, and Hezbollah, and all these groups. And they're funding it in part with money that they've gotten because of the Biden administration's weak policies.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
This is what happens when you have a president like Joe Biden. I also believe this is what happens when you have leaders in the Republican party that are signaling retreat on the world stage.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is Mr. Trump's former United Nations Ambassador, Republican presidential candidate, Nikki Haley. Ambassador Haley, welcome back to Meet The Press.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Thanks so much, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, I want to start off, Ambassador, by getting your reaction to the horrific events that unfolded in Israel yesterday. To what extent do you see this as a major intelligence failure?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, I think that there will be a time and place to deal with whether it was an intelligence failure. I think right now what I want the American people to know is just imagine the Israeli people woke up to seeing their own citizens dragged in the streets, the elderly, children, women taken as hostages, whole families murdered. And so now today the Israeli people, and the country are having to face the fact that their loved ones are being deployed, that they are having to go to the front lines to defend their country, that businesses are having to be shuttered, because their workers are leaving to go defend the country, and because they've had a massive terrorist attack. And so I think that one, prayers for determination and strength for the Israeli people. But what I want the American people to know is what happened when they were dragging those people in the streets, what happened when they were murdering innocent Israelis.The – Hamas and the backers who support them, the Iranian regime, were chanting, "Death to Israel. Death to America." That's what we have to remember. We are united with Israel, because we are united – because both Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis, and the Iranian backers, they hate us. And we have to remember that what happened to Israel could happen here in America, and I hope that we all unite and stand with Israel, because they really need us right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Quick follow-up there, Ambassador. Does that mean that you are concerned about potential attacks on the home front, in the wake of what we saw in Israel?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I have been concerned. I have been terribly worried about the fact that Iran has said the easiest way to get into America is through the Southern border. We have an open border. People are coming through. They're not being vetted. We don't need to wait for another 9/11. You also look at the fact that, Kristen, America is incredibly distracted, and incredibly divided. And when America is distracted, the world is less safe. And look at what happened to Israel. They
waited for them to be distracted. And that's when your enemies move in. America needs to wake up. We need to put this negativity and division behind us. And we need to focus on national security for ourselves and for our friends, and start thinking about what it's going to take to get America strong again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to drill down with you on some of those divisions. Yesterday almost all of your Republican rivals blamed the Biden administration for this attack, as I just discussed with the secretary, citing the deal they made with Iran. You just saw the secretary of state effectively say there is no link between that deal and the horrific attacks that unfolded yesterday. Do you think it was irresponsible of your rivals to level that allegation without any evidence or proof?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I actually think it was irresponsible for Secretary Blinken to say that the $6 billion dollars doesn't weigh in here. I mean, let's be honest with the American people, and understand that
Hamas knows and Iran knows they're moving money around as we speak, because they know $6 billion is going to be released. That's the reality. When I was at the United Nations, you saw that when those planes full of cash sent by Obama to Iran, I went to the International Atomic Energy Agency. I met with them. What happened was those funds were sent to Hezbollah in Lebanon. They were sent to Hamas in Gaza. They were sent to the Houthis in Yemen. They go and spread terrorism every time they get a dollar. It doesn't go to the Iranian people. It does go to terrorist attacks. And Secretary Blinken's just wrong to imply that this money is not being moved around as we speak--
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, Ambassador--
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
--to hurt those that love freedom.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, Ambassador, there's just no proof of that yet. This is just the hours after that immediate
attack. Is it irresponsible to level that charge when you really don't have any evidence of that at this point in time?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
The evidence is look at what the Iranian people have done to freedom-loving people around the world. Look at what the Iranian people, the Iranian regime has done to threaten Israel over the years. To think that they're not moving money around, is irresponsible to say that to the American people. They are moving money around to threaten those they hate. They hate Israel. They hate America. They are going to continue to use this. It was wrong to release the $6 billion dollars. But let me tell you what else was wrong. It was wrong to go and have that debacle in Afghanistan. It was wrong to wave sanctions on Iran that gave them even more money. Money has been flowing to Iran. And that is the problem, because when Iran gets money, they use it for hate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, Ambassador Haley, just to be clear again, the secretary of state said categorically they have not seen a link. Let me move on, though, to your record on Israel. Under the Trump administration, the U.S. embassy moved to Jerusalem. As you know, that enraged many Palestinians. Settlements expanded, in violation of international law. And there was no progress made toward a two-state solution. You were UN ambassador at the time. Could you and should you have done more to address the interests of the Palestinian people?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Well, I actually went to the West Bank. I actually met with the Palestinians multiple times. I actually went and saw what the situation was at hand. But let me tell you what else I saw. I saw tunnels underneath Israel, underneath schools.What they would do in those tunnels is they would store arms. They would store ammunition. They would store things, so that they could go and take that ammunition to hurt people across the border. They put these tunnels underneath schools because they knew that Israelis valued life. They knew that Israelis would not go and hurt innocent people. That's what we're dealing with. So I've been in those tunnels. I've seen what has happened. I've seen the graffiti all over those buildings that have tried to say that they want to kill as many Israelis and Jews as they can--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Ambassador, did you bear responsibility--
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I saw the hate up close.
KRISTEN WELKER:
--to do more to try to move toward a two-state solution, while you had the chance to do so?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I called out the truth. I called out the truth that what was happening was that you had the entire world condemning a freedom-loving country, that is a bright spot in a tough neighborhood. And the other truth I'll tell you, Kristen, is Americans need to remember it's not that Israel needs America. America needs Israel. Israel is the frontline of defense for the Iranian regime and
terrorists that want to hurt us and want to hurt our friends. And we need to be honest with the American people about that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ambassador Haley, I want to turn to former President Trump's comments recently suggesting that outgoing Joint Chiefs Chairman General Mark Milley should be executed for treason. Do you believe those comments in and of themselves mark a threat to the United States national security? Are they disqualifying?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I just think it's irresponsible. I mean, you don't need to say things like that. I think that any man or woman that has served our country deserves the highest respect. My husband is a combat veteran. He is deployed right now. They sacrifice a lot. Their families sacrifice a lot. And we should honor them every chance that we get.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Finally, your message to Republicans in Congress who right now do not have a speaker in the House, who are in a state of paralysis. Do you worry that makes the U.S. look weak on the world stage?
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
I would remind Republicans. You know Don't chase Democrat chaos with Republican chaos. We need to come together. We need to focus on national security. We need to focus on the fact that 60% of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck, that crime is at unprecedented levels, that our children are lacking in reading and math, that we have an open border, and that China's preparing for war with us. We need to get united. We need to focus on the issues that are facing us. And we need to do that now. There's no time to waste.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Ambassador Nikki Haley, thank you so much for joining us this morning. We really appreciate it.
AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Thank you. Go to NikkiHaley.com and join our fight.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. And when we come back, Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz joins me. He led to ousting of Speaker Kevin McCarthy this week, leaving the House without a leader for the first time in U.S. history.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. After just nine months, Kevin McCarthy became the first House speaker in history to be voted out of the job. Here's how members of Congress are describing the chaos on Capitol Hill. Quote, "One has to wonder whether the House is governable at all." Another called it “a vote for chaos.” Others called themselves “ashamed and embarrassed.” ‘A handful of House members just want to blow up the institution and themselves in the process. Sad.” And that's what Republicans are saying. With a government shutdown 41 days away and looking more likely, members of Congress have left Washington. A speaker election is planned for Wednesday, but the fight for the job could drag on for weeks. I'm joined now by Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida. Congressman Gaetz, welcome to Meet the Press.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Well, thanks so much for having me, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to start off with recent comments by the now ousted Speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, who said just yesterday, "The fact that the House of Representatives is leaderless at this important moment," he says, quote, "Why would you ever remove a speaker during a term," and, quote, "raise a doubt around the world?" Did your actions this week to remove the speaker undermine U.S. national security and safety?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Well, I don't think that other countries think about Kevin McCarthy's speakership quite as much as Kevin McCarthy does. We'll have a new speaker next week, and we'll be prepared to do our work. Kevin McCarthy was removed because he made multiple contradictory promises to people that ultimately could not be reconciled. The Democrats didn't trust him. House Republicans on the conservative side of our caucus didn't trust him. And that ultimately led to us making a decision to move forward with someone new. Fortunately, we've got two great men running for speaker, Jim Jordan and Steve Scalise. I reject the premise that this is going to drag on for weeks. My colleague, Kevin Hern, was contemplating a run. But I received a message from him recently that he won't be mounting that campaign precisely because in a two-man race it's going to be pretty clear who gets the most votes. I do want to say, based on what's going on in Israel right now, it is horrifying. We stand with the people of Israel. Israel has a right to defend itself. I get the sense that Israel's going to be larger, not smaller, at the end of this conflict. And you have to take note that every place, whether it's Gaza or Judea and Samaria, where Israel has given back territory, life has gotten worse for the people who live in those places. And I think Israel's actions right now are justified, though we certainly hope that the carnage and the death comes to an end as soon as possible.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, you say that you stand with Israel. You're ready to defend Israel. And yet you're completely incapable of helping Israel because you've brought Congress to a standstill, a state of paralysis. Have you not?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Well, you just heard the secretary of state reject that premise. We have a ten-year ongoing memorandum of understanding that sends Israel almost $4 billion –
KRISTEN WELKER:
He didn't reject it, Congressman. He told Congress to get back to work.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Hold on, hold on, hold on. Let me get a word in here, Kristen. Yeah, but what he said was there was no need in Israel that we're not going to be able to meet, based on the funding that we've already approved for Israel. And the reason we have this multi-billion-dollar commitment each and every year to Israel is because we want Israel to have a qualitative military edge over everyone in the region. They have that edge. Israel has air superiority now. We are – we are seeing their armored vehicles in the north. I'm very concerned about what Hezbollah might do, what Lebanon might do there to try to create more instability. But there is no ask from Israel that we are unable to meet because it's going to take us a few days to pick a new speaker. I was very critical of the pro tem's decision to send us home for a week. I thought upon McCarthy's ouster we should've stayed on the job, stayed in Washington. And if McHenry had not made that decision, we would have a speaker right now. He made one that was regrettable. But I think we're going to be back on track quite soon.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, that takes me to my next question, Congressman. Because you led this effort to oust Speaker McCarthy without a clear replacement in place. Was that irresponsible on your part?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Not only do we have a clear replacement, we have two. We have two men who are incredibly respected –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you don't have a choice and it's not clear either of them have enough votes.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Well, I think that in a two-man race, it's a lot easier to get someone to 50% plus one than in a
race where you have three, four, five, seven people. So the fact that it's been a constrained race, you are watching the play in, play out. And by the way, if we have a Speaker Jim Jordan or a Speaker Steve Scalise at the end of the coming week, there won't be a single Republican, sans maybe Kevin McCarthy, who doesn't believe that we have upgraded the position. This is about ensuring long-term stability financially for our country from a leadership standpoint. And with either Steve Scalise or Jim Jordan, we will undeniably have an upgrade, and I'm looking forward to it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman Gaetz, back in 2008 when then-Speaker Paul Ryan announced he wouldn't seek reelection to Congress, here's what you said about moving to replace him early.
[START TAPE]
REP. MATT GAETZ:
If we take Paul Ryan off the field right now, instead of being able to finish strong in the 115th Congress, we will shatter into a bunch of factions fighting against each other for power. We got enough of that in Washington already.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, Congressman, where was that concern for party unity on Tuesday?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Unfortunately, we're in a very different position today than we were back then. Also, I don't know that that was 2008. I think it was 2018. You may have missed a decade. In 2008 I was in state legislature in Florida.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It was 2018, absolutely, if I misspoke. 2018. Yep.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Okay. No problem. We've caught up. But now that we have the circumstances we're faced with, we had a leader who had made multiple contradictory promises that nobody could trust. So there was no way to move forward. Paul Ryan was in a quite different position in 2018. And where you're not seeing factions divide. Matter of fact, you saw Brian Fitzpatrick just the other day, someone who doesn't hold my view on a lot of things, a more moderate Republican, endorse Jim Jordan, my hero and mentor and judiciary chairman. So I think we're actually going to come together quite soon. I think we've got two great choices. And I think that you're going to really see an invigorated Republican party. We were in the doldrums with Kevin McCarthy. We had no budget. We have not had a budget in this country for decades. So I think that it's about time we follow the law. We have single-subject spending bills, and then we work with the Senate and the president and divided government to meet our priorities.
KRISTEN WELKER:
There's no guarantee that either of the two candidates who are running for speaker will be able to get a new budget, given that you are dealing with a divided Congress and that given that you don't have the numbers, quite frankly, Congressman.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Well, I – I disagree with that. We had the numbers to pass appropriations bills to fund over 70% of the government. And for all of the criticism that I'm an agent of chaos, I voted for all of those appropriations bills for our military, for our veterans, for our Department of Agriculture and our food security, and for our Department of Homeland Security and our border. The question isn't whether or not we believe in a budget. The question is what is the responsible budgeting process. Now, the McCarthy strategy was to utilize omnibus bills, continuing resolutions, and to have one up-or-down vote on the funding of the entire government all at once. I believe that the manner of budgeting is best served, in divided government or not, with single-subject spending bills that are individually negotiated so that you have a programmatic review on how the federal government spends money. We haven't done that, even though it is the law, since 1996. And by the way, we can do it in divided government. The last time it happened was divided government.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay, Congressman, I have been speaking to some of your Republican colleagues and you know that there are discussions about potentially kicking you out of Congress. How concerned are you about that, that you may lose your job over this?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Well, the voters of Florida's First Congressional District sent me here with about 70% of the vote. So I think that anyone trying to kick me out of Congress because they didn't like me would have a bone to pick with them. But think about what we're saying. I'm the guy saying we need a budget. That we need to follow the Budget Control Act of 1974. And because merely I wanted to hold Kevin McCarthy to his own word that he would follow the law. They want to expel me from Congress?
KRISTEN WELKER:
If you lose your job is it worth it?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
– That's crazy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If you lose your job will it be worth it?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Absolutely. Look, I am here to fight for my constituents. And I'm here to ensure that America's not on a path to financial ruin. Your average American family right now is spending $700 more each and every month for the same household goods and services. We are about to refinance $8 trillion in debt from the low interest rates to high interest rates. That's going to mean that the APR on every American credit card is about to go up. People are going to be crushed. And debt and inflation are driven by government spending that cannot continue. We're spending $7 trillion a year and only taking in five. So to me, people who are willing to drive $2 trillion annual deficits are the agents of chaos. The people who want budgets are actually agents of regular order.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, respectfully, you voted for those tax cuts under the Trump administration, which helped create that $8 trillion deficit that you're talking about right there, did you not? Is this not, as some of your critics would say, hypocritical, given that?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
No, I voted against ten continuing resolutions during the Trump era –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you voted for the tax cuts.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
And I actually voted against the budget that created the platform for the reconciliation of those tax cuts because it didn't balance. I agreed with Senator Rand Paul at the time that we should do the tax cuts with offsets and balanced budgets. There is a key distinction, though. In the Trump years, the economy was growing. Wages were growing. Capital was coming back to our country. GDP was growing in a far faster rate than it is now. So it's different when the economy is growing and people are doing better. Now there's more debt, more inflation. There's no plan. People are doing worse. And that's why I think we need a better track.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, just to put a fine point on it, Jordan or Scalise? Who's going to get your vote this week?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
I want to hear both of their specific plans on spending and on single-subject appropriations bills. I am heartened.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will you vote for whoever has the most support?
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
REP. MATT GAETZ:
Yes, if either of those men get the most support in the conference, I'm eager to vote for them on the floor. Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman Matt Gaetz, thank you. Appreciate it. And when we come back, voters in a key battleground state tell me they are deeply unsatisfied with their choices in 2024.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. On Wednesday I traveled to Buck's County, Pennsylvania, a swing county in a battleground state, to hear from voters about the issues that matter to them, the developing presidential race and the dysfunction we saw on Capitol Hill this week.
SAMANTHA CIESLINSKI:
There's so much going on that it's not – it’s very unstable.
AL BROWN:
Well, I'll give you the one word of my emotion: depression.
SCOTT YOUNG:
Watching it go down in real time was wildly entertaining, but also to Al's point, it was depressing. And I don't see a way that they're going to strike a compromise on key items like budgets and continuing resolution.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you feel like there's a leadership vacuum right now?
MICHAEL HARCUM:
Absolutely. I do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Across the board?
MICHAEL HARCUM:
Across the board.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If we look at the current polling right now, it seems like it is very possible there will be a rematch between President Biden and former President Trump. How many of you, and just raise your hands, are excited by a rematch between President Biden and former President Trump? No hands?
SAMANTHA CIESLINSKI:
Unh-uh.
KRISTEN WELKER:
No hands? No one's excited by that rematch?
AL BROWN:
Depressed is a better word.
SAMANTHA CIESLINSKI:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Depressed, why?
AL BROWN:
I think Biden is approaching senility, if not already in the middle of senility. And running the greatest country in the world, in my humble opinion, is not a job for an old senile person. And Trump is, forgive my French, an (CENSORED). And we don't need that kind of person running our country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How many of you are undecided at this moment? You're undecided in a rematch?
SAMANTHA CIESLINSKI:
Yeah, I'm undecided.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why are you undecided?
SAMANTHA CIESLINSKI:
I just – While, you know, I did vote Republican, I didn't love – it was a lot of chaos. You know, I'm someone who preaches kindness. And maybe it was hypocritical for me to vote Trump in the last election, to have both of them going back up against each other. I don't know if my moral compass could choose one of them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you know who you would vote for if there were a rematch between President Biden and former President Trump?
MICHAEL HARCUM:
I am confident that I know.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You would vote for President Biden?
MICHAEL HARCUM:
Yeah, and it would, like Al mentioned, it would not be a happy or proud vote. It would be the lesser of two evils.
SCOTT YOUNG:
In Biden versus Trump, yes, I'd vote for Biden for sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And would you do so with enthusiasm?
SCOTT YOUNG:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why?
SCOTT YOUNG:
Like Al, I share concerns about age. It's just a fact. I think he is still capable. He seems to have the vitality to continue to do the job well, but at 88 years old, just the inherent risk, I just feel that Trump has disqualified himself from office because of his behavior from the election through January 6th onward, and would never vote for him.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is there any chance that any of you sit home on Election Day?
SAMANTHA CIESLINSKI:
There is a chance, yeah. Honestly, I feel if it's Biden versus Trump, I don't know if there's anything that could make me come out and vote that day. Which I know is really upsetting because it's something that is a privilege for me to have.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Al, is there any chance you would stay at home on Election Day?
AL BROWN:
No. I love American democracy too much that Biden and Trump – if it’s a Biden and Trump race, then I would vote for Biden even if he was dead.
SCOTT YOUNG:
No chance I'd stay home.
AL BROWN:
And I'm a Republican.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Powerful comments there. You can see more of my conversation with swing voters at MeetthePress.com. And when we come back, with Israel at war, the lack of a House speaker could have an impact on U.S. national security. The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News chief Washington correspondent and foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell. NBC News Senior Capitol Hill correspondent Garrett Haake. Kimberly Atkins Stohr, senior opinion writer at The Boston Globe, and Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan. Thank you to all of you for being here on a very busy Sunday. Andrea, I want to start with you to sort of set the table here and take us behind the scenes of how these horrific attacks unfolded. I mean, there is a backdrop to all of this that you have been reporting on for quite some time.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
No, absolutely. But first of all, the news that the secretary of state made with you just this morning, which is that they are looking into reports that Americans could be among the hostages and among the dead killed in this horrific attack, the surprise attack. And the surprise factor, the intelligence failure clear in Israel, potentially because of its domestic problems. The big divisions for a year, those protests, which affected the intelligence community and the military as well. It’s a big distraction. The possible distraction here, our own divisions here in the U.S., not focused on that. And the fact that they were really focused a lot on trying to reshape the Middle East, reshape the map. A very big potential deal with Saudi Arabia, which would isolate Iran further, Saudi Arabia potentially recognizing Israel, it would, you know, change the map, going back to 1948. But not really focused enough. The president did, but the other players did not, not focused enough on the Palestinians, their grievances, which have been exacerbated under the Netanyahu – Netanyahu's right-wing coalition. So there was violence on both sides escalating in the last year.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And – and as I was discussing with Ambassador Nikki Haley, the fact that settlement houses have expanded thousands under –
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Exponentially.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– former President Trump. Yes, absolutely. Garrett, Andrea talks about the instability, those protests in Israel over the proposed judicial reforms by Prime Minister Netanyahu. We are seeing instability right now. I was just talking, obviously, to Congressman Matt Gaetz about it and asking him, "What can Congress do if Israel asks for more aid?" Talk a little bit about your reporting. Is Congress in a position to deal with this crisis, both in terms of intelligence briefings and in terms of providing any more aid if asked?
GARRETT HAAKE:
Not immediately. I mean, they'll get the briefings that they need, and that could happen fairly quickly. Members have already started getting some unclassified briefings. Even the speaker pro temp, we understand, could get the same information that would normally be available to the Speaker if the administration wants to make that happen. It is the White House's intelligence. They could make it available to whom they see fit. But in terms of acting quickly, whether to pass a supplemental appropriations bill to get more money to Israel, that's not going to happen, at least until you have a speaker. We don't even have a Senate-confirmed ambassador to Israel right now. Jack Lew's been nominated, but the Senate hasn't even held a hearing on that yet. So there's plenty of work for Congress if they wanted to jump into this space more aggressively. The reality is over time Congress has ceded so much of its national security authority to White Houses past and present anyway. But there is room for them here if they can get their act together this week.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Peggy, such an important point. There's not even an ambassador confirmed. And these tensions go back decades, years.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Oh god, yes. And it – it all takes place within the context what's happening now of what we are discussing. Real sense of civic instability in Israel. The – the controversialness of – of Prime Minister Netanyahu, his decisions, the whole sense that that country is going at itself. It was vulnerable. They went at it. And in return in the United States, there's a sense you look to the U.S. What are we thinking? And there was, unfortunately, this week that awful chaos on the House, where one of our great parties – we have only two – looked like it was being taken over by flakes and eccentrics. And it didn't look too stable either. So, a difficult time, which adds to this difficult moment.
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
And – not to – notwithstanding what Garrett said, that most of the national security and foreign relations ball has been ceded to the White House – it has not gone unnoticed in the world what the instability in the House is doing. This is supposed to be the leader. We're supposed to be the leader of the world. And we have a party that cannot even seem to govern themself – itself, barely be able to pass a budget. That certainly has led to the instability abroad. And the lack and the country among our allies that it's maybe giving our adversaries an advantage.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We have less than a minute for all of you. Final thought. You heard the frustration among those voters there that I interviewed. Andrea, we are discussing this in a moment of deep frustration here at home.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Deep frustration. This is not good for President Biden, for the administration, in any context because it's an unexpected event. Jake Sullivan only a week ago was saying that the Middle East is quieter. He says, "Unless something else happens." Well, the something else did happen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It sure did.
GARRETT HAAKE:
Ton of pressure on Republicans this week to get their act together and elect the speaker, prove they can do it. Matt Gaetz saying that he would support either Jim Jordan or Steve Scalise makes me a little more optimistic they may.
KRISTEN WELKER:
With that–
PEGGY NOONAN:
If that focus group third-party thinking, I think the biggest thing third-party has to do is prove that in this stasis they could actually do something and make it better.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes or no? Speaker this week?
KIMBERLY ATKINS STOHR:
I don't know. But–
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. We’ll see. That's all for today. Thank you for watching, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.